========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 10:23:25 +1000 Reply-To: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" Sender: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" From: LadyEliza Subject: test Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Testing - please ignore ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 22:41:51 +1000 Reply-To: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" Sender: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" From: Dancer Subject: Re: test MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit LadyEliza wrote: > > Testing - please ignore Duly ignorned - No replies please. D -- -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GAT d- s++: a C++++$ UL++++B+++S+++C++H++U++V+++$ P+++$ L+++ E- W+++(--)$ N++ w++$>--- t+ 5++ X+() R+ tv b++++ DI+++ e- h-@ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 10:58:05 +1000 Reply-To: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" Sender: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" From: LadyEliza Subject: test Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" testing - please ignore :) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 10:32:33 -0400 Reply-To: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" Sender: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" From: J-Man Organization: GOC Systems Comments: To: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Personally, I think it makes a lot more "sense" biologically to feast on > my "stringy carcass" than to use up productive farmland burying it when I > no longer need it. Since that's unlikely to happen, I opt for cremation. > With my ashes spread somewhere that will nourish the food cycle once more. > Which eventually comes down to humans eating the rutabagas or the cows that > eat the alfalfa. I am primarily a carnivore. You almost never see me without a steak or some such thing. But eating people is utterly revolting. I sincerely say that I would starve to death first before I'd eat anyone. -- ___________________________________________________________ J-Man Gates of Creation ICQ# 2843475 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dimension/5823/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 10:41:47 EDT Reply-To: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" Sender: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" From: KLitman323@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Misunderstandings: Comments: To: SIMEGEN-L@simegen.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit > Isn't Monogamy where you try to fold yourself into pretty shapes? :) Good lord no..what a foolish notion. You're thinking of oregano :) Everyone's getting silly here: OREGANO is an herb try ORIGAMI (sp?) for the paper folding idea. Monogamy is the commitment to one partner (usually applied to marriage) -- Karen Litman ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 11:11:13 EDT Reply-To: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" Sender: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" From: MLCVamp@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Misunderstandings: (Was: Re: Re: Rape) Comments: To: SIMEGEN-L@simegen.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit << What's monogamy got to do with it? -Any- long-term relationship will do. >> Sure. To me, however, "long-term" necessarily entails monogamy. Poly relationships were mentioned by a couple of other posters. How many people in our culture, though, can really be content in such a set-up without succumbing to jealousy and conflict? Unlike people in some other cultures, we don't have a societal traditional of legally accepted, stable polygamy. I suspect that happy "families" such as Mike's Martian "church" in STRANGER IN A STRANGE LAND are very rare in RL in Anglo-derived societies. To me, monogamy is part of the precondition for the trust. IF a group of people can truly love (erotically -- of course there are other kinds of love that are not and SHOULDN'T be exclusive) and trust each other equally and without reservation, the same condition could occur -- but how often does that happen? I don't say it couldn't, just that the counter-examples must be rare. (I know I couldn't accept that kind of relationship -- to me, lover-lover is "exclusive" in a way that "parent-child" isn't.) LL&P, Margaret ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 11:10:50 -0400 Reply-To: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" Sender: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" From: John Cowan Organization: Lojban Peripheral Subject: Re: Relationships (Was Re: Misunderstandings) Comments: To: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jean Lorrah wrote: > The era > of the pen system and border treaties with neighboring Gen territories, > prior to Rimon's time, is short--probably only 200-300 years. That is > really not enough time to develop a whole new set of mores. So, from the 17th century until now hasn't been long enough to develop a whole new set of mores? Just the invention of the *automobile* developed a whole new set all by itself (we shifted from "courting" to "dating"). -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn. You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn. Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 11:16:26 EDT Reply-To: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" Sender: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" From: MLCVamp@AOL.COM Subject: Re: WORK: Cheryl's novel Comments: To: SIMEGEN-L@simegen.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Thanks for the info, Cheryl. What ARE these Christian lines that allow "steamier" scenes? I'm sorry to hear your editor cut out references to physical attraction. To me, that diminishes the realism. I was just giving commercial brand names as an example of "the same kind of thing" -- what I really wondered was whether the GLs forbid naming the character's denomination -- and esp. whether they allow the "higher" (liturgically) denominations such as RC or C of E. Margaret ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 11:31:05 -0400 Reply-To: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" Sender: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" From: John Cowan Organization: Lojban Peripheral Subject: Re: Misunderstandings: (Was: Re: Re: Rape) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit MLCVamp@AOL.COM wrote: > Sure. To me, however, "long-term" necessarily entails monogamy. Disproved by counterexample. Details on request only. Unless you mean "*For* me", in which case you probably know best about your own situation. -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn. You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn. Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 10:29:25 +0000 Reply-To: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" Sender: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" From: Marge Robbins Subject: Re: Misunderstandings: (Was: Re: Re: Rape) Comments: To: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dancer wrote: > J-Man wrote: > > > > > *blink* > > > > > > What's monogamy got to do with it? -Any- long-term relationship will > > > do. > > > > > Isn't Monogamy where you try to fold yourself into pretty shapes? :) > > Good lord no..what a foolish notion. You're thinking of oregano :) That's a spice, used mainly in Italian cooking. Origama is the art of Paper folding. > Marge -- Chanel@simegen.com mrobbins@netins.net mrobbins@apacteleservices.com http://www.simegen.com/chanel/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 11:33:45 -0400 Reply-To: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" Sender: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" From: John Cowan Organization: Lojban Peripheral Subject: WORK: Shift in POV Comments: To: Sime-Gen Universe MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As an exercise, I have taken a section of the "Report of the Independent Counsel" and converted it from its current Detached-Observer POV to a Limited-Third-Person POV. The results are at http://www.ccil.org/~cowan/he-she.html . Warning: sexual content. None of the "Seven Words" are used. -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn. You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn. Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 11:40:23 EDT Reply-To: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" Sender: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" From: APinzow@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Copyright Comments: To: SIMEGEN-L@simegen.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 98-09-18 07:42:54 EDT, Dancer wrote: If you want definitive proof of copyright that will stand up in virtually any court of law in the world, seal the material and send it to yourself registered mail. It'll get date-stamped, and you leave it sealed until the day you have an officer-of-the-court open it, and verify the date and that it was unopened until then. Many software people use this method to guard against companies stealing their stuff (game authors submitting to publishers and the like) I know that what Dancer wrote is considered to be true by many writers and artists alike and that it is standared advice given to every writer and artist who seeks to go pro for a quick and easy way to establish title. And sometimes this is the only proof of copyright that a legitemate "creator" has. However, according to: The Writers Guild of America The Academy of Television Arts and Sciences The Motion Picture Academy The Association of Artists Representatives Ellen Kozak, author and copyright lawyer (who has helped to write copyright law) The Patent Office of the United States (which encompasses the copyright office) and every copyright lawyer I've spoken to (and I've spoken to and had on retainer the best) this type of copyright registration DOES NOT HOLD UP against a legally registered copyright. It is true that mailing it to yourself creates a paper trail, which is important. However, it only costs $22.00 to register a manuscript, script, and I believe artwork, with the copyright office (in the United States). Also, if you really want to have that paper trail secure, you can register even an idea with the Writers Guild of America. See their website for details. Registration with the WGA does legally establish the inception date as the date they receive it. This does hold up in court. Mailed items to yourself and using that in court vs. a registered copyright in court might get you a settlement (a mere "nuisence" to the big boys) but it generally does not establish clear title. And as a writer myself, though settlements are nice, I prefer my name and clear title on my work. Readya, Anne ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 08:45:50 -0700 Reply-To: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" Sender: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" From: "Jaramillo, Don" Subject: Re: Misunderstandings: (Was: Re: Re: Rape) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" -----Original Message----- From: Marge Robbins [mailto:mrobbins@NETINS.NET] Sent: Friday, September 18, 1998 3:29 AM To: SIMEGEN-L@SECURITY.CALOUNDRA.QLD.GOV.AU Subject: Re: Misunderstandings: (Was: Re: Re: Rape) >Dancer wrote: >> J-Man wrote: >> > >> > > *blink* >> > > >> > > What's monogamy got to do with it? -Any- long-term relationship will >> > > do. >> > > >> > Isn't Monogamy where you try to fold yourself into pretty shapes? :) Monogamy would be folding yourself into one pretty shape, possibly for life. Polygamy is about folding yourself into many different pretty shapes. ;-) >> >> Good lord no..what a foolish notion. You're thinking of oregano :) > That's a spice, used mainly in Italian cooking. Origama is the art of Paper >folding. NoNoNoNo.... Didn't you know? Spice is the plural of spouse! Don Jaramillo (510) 354-6329 djaramillo@intarsiacorp.com ICQ: 10762090 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 02:02:05 +1000 Reply-To: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" Sender: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" From: Dancer Subject: Re: Misunderstandings: (Was: Re: Re: Rape) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Jaramillo, Don" wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > From: Marge Robbins [mailto:mrobbins@NETINS.NET] > Sent: Friday, September 18, 1998 3:29 AM > To: SIMEGEN-L@SECURITY.CALOUNDRA.QLD.GOV.AU > Subject: Re: Misunderstandings: (Was: Re: Re: Rape) > > >Dancer wrote: > > >> J-Man wrote: > >> > > >> > > *blink* > >> > > > >> > > What's monogamy got to do with it? -Any- long-term relationship will > >> > > do. > >> > > > >> > Isn't Monogamy where you try to fold yourself into pretty shapes? :) > > Monogamy would be folding yourself into one pretty shape, possibly for life. > Polygamy is about folding yourself into many different pretty shapes. ;-) > > >> > >> Good lord no..what a foolish notion. You're thinking of oregano :) > > > That's a spice, used mainly in Italian cooking. Origama is the art of > Paper > >folding. > > NoNoNoNo.... > > Didn't you know? Spice is the plural of spouse! Oh, hooray!!! Someone got the implied pun! D -- -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GAT d- s++: a C++++$ UL++++B+++S+++C++H++U++V+++$ P+++$ L+++ E- W+++(--)$ N++ w++$>--- t+ 5++ X+() R+ tv b++++ DI+++ e- h-@ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 11:14:34 -0500 Reply-To: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" Sender: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" From: Kandace Klumper Subject: Uh, I must have missed something MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I must have missed something. When did the list change, yet again? And do I have to resubscribe to the digest? I've been getting list posts today, when I shouldn't. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 11:48:41 -0500 Reply-To: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" Sender: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" From: Jean Lorrah Subject: Re: Relationships (Was Re: Misunderstandings) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 11:10 AM 9/18/98 -0400, John Cowan wrote: >So, from the 17th century until now hasn't been long enough to >develop a whole new set of mores? Just the invention of the >*automobile* developed a whole new set all by itself (we shifted >from "courting" to "dating"). Still basically monogamy. Serial monogamy now, but still monogamy. Also, the changes caused by the automobile did not occur until the automobile was invented. The world of S~G does not take giant technological strides immediately upon the creation of the border treaties--although if anyone remembers electricity or if hydroelectric power is still in use anywhere, I _would_ expect that and telegraphy to be reinvented in Gen territories once there was not the constant threat of Simes cutting the wires. Apparently this did _not_ happen, so there was no great expansion of knowledge or communication to spread a major change in mores. Jean jean.lorrah@murraystate.edu. When cryptography is outlawed, bayl bhgynjf jvyy unir cevinpl. Visit my website, http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4165/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 13:41:22 -0400 Reply-To: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" Sender: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" From: "Hannah M.G. Shapero" Subject: Re: Intimate Details Comments: To: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19980918072405.006eaea8@gothic.net.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > Hanna is right, of course. My name is spelled Hannah with a final H. > However, I think we have to say that it is good, in a way, that we feel > that we can trust each other enough to reveal parts of our lives without > fear of judgement or ridicule. This just isn't the place to do it. Right. I also would like to remind members of this List of these facts: There are people on this List who DO believe that monogamy is the only right way to have a marriage or at least a long-term-relationship. And these people may be offended by flippant remarks about monogamy, as if it were just some silly notion dreamed up by one repressed society. In both Judaism and Christianity, monogamy, and exclusive sex within monogamy, is sacred. Evidently, in Paganism, this is not the case. I have heard unnecessarily negative (and unfounded) remarks against Christianity on this List. Perhaps in a generally Pagan atmosphere it is considered OK to criticize Christianity. But if it were Judaism that were being criticized - or Paganism - then there might be quite an outcry. As Lady Eliza has said, this List is not the place for intimate sexual discussions or a large amount of personal "sharing." If such things have a direct relationship to Sime~Gen universe, science fiction, writing, or publishing, or other things like that, fine. But the number of posts which have little or nothing to do with the S~topic is multiplying quickly and I am having to delete most of what I get on this List which is not what I want to do. Thank you for your offer and I hope that those of you who wish to "share" your intimacies can do it on Lady Eliza's list and not on the main S~G list. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 14:30:47 -0400 Reply-To: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" Sender: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" From: J-Man Organization: GOC Systems Subject: Re: Misunderstandings: (Was: Re: Re: Rape) Comments: To: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > > > *blink* > > > > > > What's monogamy got to do with it? -Any- long-term relationship will > > > do. > > > > > Isn't Monogamy where you try to fold yourself into pretty shapes? :) > > Good lord no..what a foolish notion. You're thinking of oregano :) > I know, it was just my attempt at a 'pun'. :) -- ___________________________________________________________ J-Man Gates of Creation ICQ# 2843475 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dimension/5823/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 04:13:44 +1000 Reply-To: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" Sender: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" From: "Jenn V." Subject: Mores (was: Relationships (Was Re: Misunderstandings)) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John Cowan wrote: > > Jean Lorrah wrote: > > > The era > > of the pen system and border treaties with neighboring Gen territories, > > prior to Rimon's time, is short--probably only 200-300 years. That is > > really not enough time to develop a whole new set of mores. > > So, from the 17th century until now hasn't been long enough to > develop a whole new set of mores? Just the invention of the > *automobile* developed a whole new set all by itself (we shifted > from "courting" to "dating"). No, it hasn't. Those aren't a whole new set of mores, just a set of behaviours /based on/ the old mores - at least, not by my definition of mores. Besides, never heard of the debutante ball? Courting by any other name... We've replaced the Victorian-era 'coming out' courtship-display party with a senior prom. Biiiiig change there.... Mores: the work ethic the double-standard (guys can, girls can't) 'for queen and country'/honour the flag Behaviours: walking out borrowing the sulky/carriage/once-around-the-park-then-home-James 'parking' courting dating IMO. YMMV. Jenn V. -- It's amazing where you can go with a completely false premise Jenn Vesperman jenn@brisnet.org.au http://www.brisnet.org.au/~jenn ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 04:25:00 +1000 Reply-To: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" Sender: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" From: "Jenn V." Subject: DO NOT ASK ME FOR HELP THIS WEEK Comments: To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I apologise for the startling sort of subject. I /won't/ be around to answer my email, as of tomorrow. Thus, while it is attractive and apparently memorable to send your help requests direct to me, I won't even be able to forward them for at least a week. The list has temporarily moved, because the box which usually hosts the list is going to be in a removalist's van from the 21st to the 25th of this month, and we can't be /certain/ that there'll be a suitable data line at the new place. It's ordered, but whether it'll be there.. :/ So Eliza has been wonderful and filled in the gap, and Dancer and Eliza have transferred '@simegen.com' to mean her box rather than ours. So simegen-l@simegen.com will still work, even though the machinery which usually fills that role will be off the net. Ain't technology grand? The downside is that we seem to have lost the settings again, despite doing everything the listserv manual (seems to) have said to do. If you need help restoring your settings - or anything else - email eliza@gothic.net.au or torun@gte.net. DO NOT ATTEMPT TO GET ME TO HELP YOU WITH ANYTHING. Not for a week. Or I'll end up with a mailbox packed with 'help me' requests, and you'll all end up without help. Repeat: appropriate & available people to help you are eliza@gothic.net.au and torun@gte.net. Other helpful and wonderful people are Leigh and Tori. When they're again available, they'll email the list & let you know. Jenn V. -- It's amazing where you can go with a completely false premise Jenn Vesperman jenn@brisnet.org.au http://www.brisnet.org.au/~jenn ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 12:03:14 -0700 Reply-To: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" Sender: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" From: Kierestelli Aradia Morgan Subject: respect vs. censorship In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 18 Sep 1998, Hannah M.G. Shapero wrote: > There are people on this List who DO believe that monogamy is the only > right way to have a marriage or at least a long-term-relationship. And > these people may be offended by flippant remarks about monogamy, as if it > were just some silly notion dreamed up by one repressed society. > And they can ignore them -- the way people who are not monogamous have to ignore the constant implication in our society that anyone who feels otherwise is some kind of worthless piece of trash, especially if they're female. Do you have any idea what non-monogamous women have to take? It would make one or two flippant remarks look very trivial, very fast. > In both Judaism and Christianity, monogamy, and exclusive sex within > monogamy, is sacred. Evidently, in Paganism, this is not the case. > It depends upon what flavor of Paganism you practice. As a general rule, however, Paganism does not dictate the shape an intimate relationship must take, but rather requires that whatever form of relationship the parties involved may choose, there must be honesty and there must be consent to all of the rules on all sides. I'd like to hope that those who do have such beliefs would respect the fact that those who don't, since they have no Biblical prohibition against them, are also trying to behave in an ethical and respectable manner. Incidentally, I have met committed Christians who were non-monogamous, and they claimed to have Biblical justification for their beliefs and practices. I also recall Jewish men with multiple wives in the Bible. I have noted that you can pretty much reconcile just about anything with the Bible, and I don't care if they're "right" or "wrong"...but I thought I'd mention it. > I have heard unnecessarily negative (and unfounded) remarks against > Christianity on this List. Perhaps in a generally Pagan atmosphere it is > considered OK to criticize Christianity. But if it were Judaism that > were being criticized - or Paganism - then there might be quite an outcry. > Who decides what's unnecessarily negative? I would *hope* that Christianity, like Judaism and Paganism, would be strong enough to withstand criticism. Any atmosphere in which is is not considered OK to criticize ANY religion or philosophy, or the tenets of such religion or philosophy, is not an atmosphere I consider conducive to the discussion of anything important...since all of these issues are relevant to world-building. Christians have too long demanded that they not be publicly questioned or criticized; this makes those of us who are not Christian suspicious of the convictions of those who make these demands, as we do not have the luxury of being able by sheer force of number or political power to silence criticism of our beliefs. Every day we encounter criticism. I am tired of their censorship. As to the unfoundedness of someone's remarks, you always have the right to question people's facts...or motives, for that matter. I also do not believe that being totally "non-judgemental" or always "positive" is the answer. It is necessary that every human being be able to judge beliefs and ideas on their merit, else no one could ever decide what their morals and values actually are. You can't have values without declaring that some ideas are better or more important than others. > As Lady Eliza has said, this List is not the place for intimate sexual > discussions or a large amount of personal "sharing." If such things have > a direct relationship to Sime~Gen universe, science fiction, writing, or > publishing, or other things like that, fine. But the number of posts which > have little or nothing to do with the S~topic is multiplying quickly and I > am having to delete most of what I get on this List which is not what I > want to do. > I have always found that this is a part of being on any interesting mailing list. I may very well take Eliza up on her offer, but I don't think you can avoid this completely...and I think there have been a lot of these posts from a lot of different people, frankly. If someone talks about rape in stories pretty soon someone is going to share their rape story. If people talk about relationships it's pretty hard not to relate thhat to your own life as well as your writing. I don't think I'm the only one who has posted about such things and I don't think I'm the most graphic...I saw one or two posts on rape that curled my hair, too. But...it always gets pulled back to S~G or to writing in general, and I don't think you can discuss world building without talking about philosophy or relations between the sexes or ... well, the thing about world building is that just about everything is relevant. I imagine my personal life has had a lot to do with the way my world is structured...I'm sure it has for others, too. (In my own writing I've noticed, for instance, that there are not a lot of good mothers...) If you don't want to hear about my personal life...or Karen's, or Dancer and Jenn's, or Jory's, or Don's...well, I'm sorry, and I will try to cut back on it...although it's my experience that that's how discussions in fandom go, generally. (This may be related to my being a resident of California. Most of the mailing lists I'm on are dominated by other Californians...and people aged 18-35...they're mostly anime-related.) And I, at least, try not to be flippant. But anyone who is so attached to the concept of monogamy that word play revolving around the *sound* of the word is offensive, I think, is a bit thin-skinned, and most of the Christians I've met who felt oppressed were upset because it was no longer taken for granted in public discourse that "everyone" agreed with their principles. Welcome to the world the rest of us have been living in since 500 CE...neither Jews nor Pagans nor anyone other than Christians has had this security anywhere in the "Western world" since then. Perhaps that's why I have less and less affinity for the "Western world" as I grow to understand what's outside it better. ****************************************************************************** Kierestelli Aradia Morgan tiamat@tsoft.com "She lost her dream playing at love; she forgot that she had to let her mind shine all the time. Little by little, she is learning to understand the meaning of things they never taught her in school." -- OZAKI Yutaka, 1965-1992 *>i<* "If you really want to enjoy life, you must work quietly and humbly and realize your delusions of grandeur." -- Mark Helprin ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 15:10:43 -0400 Reply-To: Jacqueline Lichtenberg Sender: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg Subject: Re: DO NOT ASK ME FOR HELP THIS WEEK MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jenn: Happy moving week -- GO FOR IT!!! Don't sweat it if there are difficulties getting set up again. We'll still be here when you get "back". Live Long and Prosper, JL ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 10:58:41 -0700 Reply-To: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" Sender: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" From: Donald Jaramillo Subject: Re: Intimate Details Comments: To: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Some of what I have below is related to stuff I'm collecting for an eventual essay that I will post to the list and the Rathorite web site. Many aspects of my perspective was enhanced by a book I read many years ago, a gift from a close friend. The book was _Gaia: The Journey from Chaos to Cosmos_ by Elisabet Sahtouris. The original book is out of print, and the book was loaned and lost some time ago. Fortunately, and this applies to some specific conduit topics on the list, she has updated the book. The newer book, _EarthDance: Living Systems in Evolution_ is available. Interestingly enough, it is available both by it's small publisher as well as on the web. At the website, http://www.ratical.com/LifeWeb/ , one can not only find the information to order the book, but one can access the book in HTML, ASCII, PDF and Postcript formats. Sound familiar? -----Original Message----- From: Hannah M.G. Shapero To: SIMEGEN-L@ZEOR.SIMEGEN.COM Date: Thursday, September 17, 1998 11:08 PM Subject: Intimate Details >Simes and Gens: > > I am going to sound like a starchy old bag here, but I am really >uncomfortable with all the very intimate personal details being discussed >here on the list. One poster in particular is being far more "open" about >her life than most people would be in a semi-public situation. It may not >be a problem for her and the others, but it is a problem for me. You mean this isn't the place to discuss "Intimate Adventure"? :-) > I am on this list to hear about Sime~Gen universe, science >fiction, worldbuilding, writing, publishing, and other related topics. I >am finding that I have to delete most of the posts on this List which is >not what I would like to do. I admit I've been a bit guilty of diverting >the purpose of the List with my postings on morality and philosophy. > Could we take the discussions of peoples' intimate sex lives to >private e-mail, and get back to discussing the basic topics of the List? I think in many ways it is hard to pin down just what the list is about. In some aspects, this is something more than an academic literary list. It also approaches an online meeting place, where fans can get together between conventions. As such, a lot of us have tended to form close bonds as we would with fellow fans we might meet regularly, especially since a significant number of us have met a number of others on the list. I consider myself below average, only having met 4 of you IRL...and one of those I brought to the list from other contacts I have with her (Hi Kiri!). When I first started out on this list, I was in some ways the outsider, despite having been a fan for well over a decade. At that time, it seemed that I was the only one who didn't have a face-to-face history with the others. Over course of the last couple of years, through the list and in IRC and other chat media, I've formed some close friendships with many of the people on the list. We seem to have no problems baring our souls and taking in the baring of the others'. One of the things I perceive in the whole S~G universe and Jacqueline's attitudes that come out in her monthly column as well is applying some of the positive principles in one's life. One thing that I see in the root theme of Sime~Gen is what I have termed a Gaian perspective rather than a Darwinist one. In the Darwinistic view, success is measured by competition, being better, stronger, more powerful than those around you. Survival of the fittest, dissolution of the unfit. Those that were not as successful as powerful were inferior. We saw Darwinism applied socially to such institutions and philosophies as Capitalism, Nazism, and even to an extent, Communism. The Darwinistic view has also been seen as a bit of a mechanical view of the universe, with very strong if/then relationships. The Gaian view as I see it is one that is built not around competition, but cooperation. The principle is that no one species is independent, all members of an ecosystem ultimately work together to achieve a successful, dynamic balance. It is more related to chaos theory and a biological (rather than mechanical) view of the universe. The Sime~Gen is built around such a principle. Neither Sime nor Gen can thrive in competition or without the other. For each to thrive, the two polarities of humanity much cooperate. They must actually go beyond mere cooperation as the failure of the Tecton shows. In my own Path, I have always tried to apply these principles. When I let someone into my life, they are a part of me. I tend to form deep, intimate bonds (whether sexual or even sensual intimacy is there as well). I tend to be very open with my life to those around me, and reciprocally, those around me tend to find themselves being more open around me as well. Does that make sense? Follow Your Bliss!! Don ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 15:32:36 -0400 Reply-To: nova@li.net Sender: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" From: Nova Subject: [Fwd: Re: Feral Cats (was Rape)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <3601A811.3BBE@li.net> Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 20:23:45 -0400 From: Nova Reply-To: nova@li.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom Subject: Re: Feral Cats (was Rape) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit OK now I understand. Humanity has brought upon another ecological disaster. The animals both native and newcomer are the ones to suffer. I'm sure the feral cats didn't ask to be brought to Australia. From: Paul Sharrock >They kill for pleasure and they seem to take great delight in torturing >there prey, I get a great deal of enjoyment out of killing them. The cat is an animal and dose not know any better. I doubt the cat has the brains to even think of it's prey as alive. Mind you I am not questioning motives, it's the pleasure factor I am having difficulty with here. I've had to deal with vermin before, and I did not like it at all. I cannot blame an animal for what it is. In my opinion it is sick to get a "great deal of enjoyment out of killing" and the day I do get enjoyment out of killing is the day I turn in all my firearms and see a counselor. Nova (Gen Chauvinist and proud of it!) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 15:37:56 -0400 Reply-To: Jacqueline Lichtenberg Sender: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg Subject: Re: Intimate Details MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Don: I glanced at a post that seemed to imply that Eliza had invited folks to another List to discuss the topic that's gotten out of hand on Virtual Selyn and I didn't answer her about that because I thought it was a good idea. JL -----Original Message----- From: Donald Jaramillo To: SIMEGEN-L@SECURITY.CALOUNDRA.QLD.GOV.AU Date: Friday, September 18, 1998 3:49 PM Subject: Re: Intimate Details >Some of what I have below is related to stuff I'm collecting for an eventual >essay that I will post to the list and the Rathorite web site. Many aspects >of my perspective was enhanced by a book I read many years ago, a gift from >a close friend. The book was _Gaia: The Journey from Chaos to Cosmos_ by >Elisabet Sahtouris. The original book is out of print, and the book was >loaned and lost some time ago. > >Fortunately, and this applies to some specific conduit topics on the list, >she has updated the book. The newer book, _EarthDance: Living Systems in >Evolution_ is available. Interestingly enough, it is available both by it's >small publisher as well as on the web. At the website, >http://www.ratical.com/LifeWeb/ , one can not only find the information to >order the book, but one can access the book in HTML, ASCII, PDF and >Postcript formats. Sound familiar? > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Hannah M.G. Shapero >To: SIMEGEN-L@ZEOR.SIMEGEN.COM >Date: Thursday, September 17, 1998 11:08 PM >Subject: Intimate Details > > >>Simes and Gens: >> >> I am going to sound like a starchy old bag here, but I am really >>uncomfortable with all the very intimate personal details being discussed >>here on the list. One poster in particular is being far more "open" about >>her life than most people would be in a semi-public situation. It may not >>be a problem for her and the others, but it is a problem for me. > > >You mean this isn't the place to discuss "Intimate Adventure"? :-) > >> I am on this list to hear about Sime~Gen universe, science >>fiction, worldbuilding, writing, publishing, and other related topics. I >>am finding that I have to delete most of the posts on this List which is >>not what I would like to do. I admit I've been a bit guilty of diverting >>the purpose of the List with my postings on morality and philosophy. > > >> Could we take the discussions of peoples' intimate sex lives to >>private e-mail, and get back to discussing the basic topics of the List? > > >I think in many ways it is hard to pin down just what the list is about. In >some aspects, this is something more than an academic literary list. It >also approaches an online meeting place, where fans can get together between >conventions. As such, a lot of us have tended to form close bonds as we >would with fellow fans we might meet regularly, especially since a >significant number of us have met a number of others on the list. > >I consider myself below average, only having met 4 of you IRL...and one of >those I brought to the list from other contacts I have with her (Hi Kiri!). > >When I first started out on this list, I was in some ways the outsider, >despite having been a fan for well over a decade. At that time, it seemed >that I was the only one who didn't have a face-to-face history with the >others. > >Over course of the last couple of years, through the list and in IRC and >other chat media, I've formed some close friendships with many of the people >on the list. We seem to have no problems baring our souls and taking in the >baring of the others'. > >One of the things I perceive in the whole S~G universe and Jacqueline's >attitudes that come out in her monthly column as well is applying some of >the positive principles in one's life. One thing that I see in the root >theme of Sime~Gen is what I have termed a Gaian perspective rather than a >Darwinist one. > >In the Darwinistic view, success is measured by competition, being better, >stronger, more powerful than those around you. Survival of the fittest, >dissolution of the unfit. Those that were not as successful as powerful >were inferior. We saw Darwinism applied socially to such institutions and >philosophies as Capitalism, Nazism, and even to an extent, Communism. The >Darwinistic view has also been seen as a bit of a mechanical view of the >universe, with very strong if/then relationships. > >The Gaian view as I see it is one that is built not around competition, but >cooperation. The principle is that no one species is independent, all >members of an ecosystem ultimately work together to achieve a successful, >dynamic balance. It is more related to chaos theory and a biological >(rather than mechanical) view of the universe. The Sime~Gen is built around >such a principle. Neither Sime nor Gen can thrive in competition or without >the other. For each to thrive, the two polarities of humanity much >cooperate. They must actually go beyond mere cooperation as the failure of >the Tecton shows. > >In my own Path, I have always tried to apply these principles. When I let >someone into my life, they are a part of me. I tend to form deep, intimate >bonds (whether sexual or even sensual intimacy is there as well). I tend to >be very open with my life to those around me, and reciprocally, those around >me tend to find themselves being more open around me as well. > >Does that make sense? > >Follow Your Bliss!! > >Don > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 15:13:27 -0500 Reply-To: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" Sender: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" From: Captain Button Subject: Re: Intimate Details Comments: To: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 18 Sep 1998, Hannah M.G. Shapero wrote: > Simes and Gens: > > I am going to sound like a starchy old bag here, but I am really > uncomfortable with all the very intimate personal details being discussed > here on the list. One poster in particular is being far more "open" about > her life than most people would be in a semi-public situation. It may not > be a problem for her and the others, but it is a problem for me. [ text hidden behind closed doors ] > Could we take the discussions of peoples' intimate sex lives to > private e-mail, and get back to discussing the basic topics of the List? I have meaning to post on the Rape thread and its children. I hadn't done so yet because of equal parts cowardice, laziness and reluctance to throw naplam on the fires. This request seems as good an excuse as any to use to justify my not doing so. This way I can look semi-noble for not responding to the absurd and grossly insulting generalizations made be some here. My thanks to those persons who have responded to them in ways I might have. I'll be on the other mailing list if Eliza sets it up. -- "We have to go forth and crush every world view that doesn't believe in tolerance and free speech," - David Brin Captain Button - button@io.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 18:33:55 +1000 Reply-To: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" Sender: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" From: LadyEliza Subject: Re: DO NOT ASK ME FOR HELP THIS WEEK Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > email eliza@gothic.net.au or >torun@gte.net. > that's ladye@gothic.net.au not eliza@gothic.net.au Eliza ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 15:39:03 -0700 Reply-To: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" Sender: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" From: Cheryl Wolverton Subject: Re: WORK: Cheryl's novel Comments: To: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" , SIMEGEN-L@ZEOR.SIMEGEN.COM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit heh...okay......let me say, I imagine some books are spicer than the ones I write...for this line...but the emphasis is suppose to be on the emotional impact made, not the physical.....it's obvious they are physically attracted...sigh.... it all boils down to that you can pick up a book and know what you're getting....a lot of people like that....after all, would you want to pick up a sime gen and find it totally foreign to what sime gen is in all the other books:) Cheryl Wolverton This SIde of Paradise Aug 98 The Best Christmas Ever Dec 98 A Mother's Love May 99 http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/1037 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 15:41:15 -0700 Reply-To: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" Sender: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" From: Cheryl Wolverton Subject: Re: WORK: Cheryl's novel MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit multmonah does....re: steamier mentioning demoninations really shouldn't be in there....the books aren't about demoniations, nor are they about God, so much as about the relationsihip... besides....when writing any type of fiction, you don't want to limit your market too much.....and the more specific you are in these areas the more likely you are to limit your market. :) Cheryl Wolverton This SIde of Paradise Aug 98 The Best Christmas Ever Dec 98 A Mother's Love May 99 http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/1037 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 15:45:20 -0700 Reply-To: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" Sender: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" From: Cheryl Wolverton Subject: Re: respect vs. censorship MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ahem......thank you, Hannah, for your post about getting back to SimeGen...and not so much personal on the list;) It's nice to see someone else say something.....even if you do end up getting flamed:) just wanted you to know I support you....and look forward to more SimeGen posts;))) Cheryl Wolverton This SIde of Paradise Aug 98 The Best Christmas Ever Dec 98 A Mother's Love May 99 http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/1037 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 18:41:49 +1000 Reply-To: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" Sender: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" From: LadyEliza Subject: the move Comments: To: simegen-l@simegen.com Comments: cc: admin@caloundra.qld.gov.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To get matters straight it was my brother at the Caloundra Library who stayed up till all hours on a Friday night to get this working. He even went so far as to put together a new unix system for the listserve! Thank you so very much Shane. There are a few teething problems by the look of it. We are working on them. If you have any problems email Torun torun@gte.net or me ladye@gothic.net.au and let us know. Do not email the list with the problems please. Sorry if it has caused any inconvience, but the alternative was to take the list down for a week or so and we didn't want anyone to die of attrition. When Jenn and Dancer are settled and everything is plugged back in we will change it back. Eliza ambrov Halwyn Companion to Zoe Farris ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 15:58:28 -0500 Reply-To: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" Sender: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" From: Captain Button Subject: SILLY: Re: the move In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19980918184147.006f68a4@gothic.net.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 18 Sep 1998, LadyEliza wrote: > Sorry if it has caused any inconvience, but the alternative was to take the > list down for a week or so and we didn't want anyone to die of attrition. Attrition in a week? Nah. Just use one of those Zeor denial exercises. -- "We have to go forth and crush every world view that doesn't believe in tolerance and free speech," - David Brin Captain Button - button@io.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 19:36:03 +1000 Reply-To: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" Sender: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" From: LadyEliza Subject: Digest vs Regular Comments: To: simegen-l@simegen.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" If you are use to getting your list mail digest and you are suddenly getting individual posts can you please email Torun torun@gte.net or me ladye@gothic.net.au and we will set it back for you as it appears that some (probibly all?) of the digest settings were lost. Sorry for the inconvience. Eliza ambrov Halwyn Companion to Zoe Farris ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 14:40:16 -0700 Reply-To: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" Sender: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" From: Kierestelli Aradia Morgan Subject: congratulations JAYELITHE! Comments: To: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 18 Sep 1998, Jaye wrote: > First off... > > NEWS NEWS NEWS > > I came back from court a short time ago (short as of when I wrote this > paragraph... which was over 12 hrs ago now that I'm editing the post). As > of 9:06 AM, my name is Jayelithe Laneff n'ha Naomi. > Congratulations! I wasn't born "Kierestelli" either. Warning, though, you *will* have days when you are tired of explaining it to the mundanes. I did without the n'ha part because I thought that would be especially hard to explain in a legal name. And the question I REALLY hate is "what language is that?" > I also believe in the sanctity of life. But I believe it is SO holy that > the person has the right to exit it if he can't stand it any more. At HIS > OWN discretion. (I AM worried, btw, about the implications of HMO's and > families of chronically/progressively ill patients pressuring them to rush > the process... and I don't have any answer to that potential problem. But I > still want the right to exit when/if I ever decide I can't stand it any more.) > Yeah, if there's anyone I don't trust to make such a decision it's an HMO... I loved your idea for a global business game! I'd play that... blessings, Kiri ****************************************************************************** Kierestelli Aradia Morgan tiamat@tsoft.com "She lost her dream playing at love; she forgot that she had to let her mind shine all the time. Little by little, she is learning to understand the meaning of things they never taught her in school." -- OZAKI Yutaka, 1965-1992 *>i<* "If you really want to enjoy life, you must work quietly and humbly and realize your delusions of grandeur." -- Mark Helprin ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 18:04:07 -0500 Reply-To: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" Sender: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" From: Jean Lorrah Subject: Re: the move Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" We should all shout a THANK YOU that can be heard in Hawaii and Australia! With all the threads in progress, not only would people die of attrition if the list suddenly went dead--many would die of sheer shen! Jean At 06:41 PM 9/18/98 +1000, you wrote: >To get matters straight it was my brother at the Caloundra Library who >stayed up till all hours on a Friday night to get this working. He even >went so far as to put together a new unix system for the listserve! Thank >you so very much Shane. > >There are a few teething problems by the look of it. We are working on >them. If you have any problems email Torun torun@gte.net or me >ladye@gothic.net.au and let us know. Do not email the list with the >problems please. > >Sorry if it has caused any inconvience, but the alternative was to take the >list down for a week or so and we didn't want anyone to die of attrition. > >When Jenn and Dancer are settled and everything is plugged back in we will >change it back. > >Eliza ambrov Halwyn >Companion to Zoe Farris > Jean Lorrah A21711F@msumusik.mursuky.edu. If no response in 72 hours, try Jean1@Juno.com. Did you hear about the dyslexic Satanist? He sold his soul to Santa. http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3439 http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4165 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 18:48:57 -0700 Reply-To: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" Sender: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" From: Cheryl Wolverton Subject: Re: the move MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit yes.....agreeing with Jean.....thank you.....don't know what I would do without my sime gen fix;) Cheryl Wolverton This SIde of Paradise Aug 98 The Best Christmas Ever Dec 98 A Mother's Love May 99 http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/1037 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 15:03:10 -0700 Reply-To: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" Sender: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" From: Donald Jaramillo Subject: Junct (Was: Re: Feral Cats (was Rape)) Comments: To: nova@li.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----Original Message----- From: Nova To: A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom Date: Thursday, September 17, 1998 5:23 PM Subject: Re: Feral Cats (was Rape) >OK now I understand. Humanity has brought upon another ecological >disaster. The animals both native and newcomer are the ones to suffer. >I'm sure the feral cats didn't ask to be brought to Australia. The feral dogs probably did, though. You know how dogs often want to hop in the car when you go for a ride. I can imagine them standing with their heads out of the portholes (with their tongues hanging down) the hole trip. >Mind you I am not questioning motives, it's the pleasure factor I am >having difficulty with here. I've had to deal with vermin before, and I >did not like it at all. I cannot blame an animal for what it is. > >In my opinion it is sick to get a "great deal of enjoyment out of >killing" and the day I do get enjoyment out of killing is the day I turn >in all my firearms and see a counselor. I have to admit that this reminded me of junctedness. I remember the time I killed a rat in my bare hands to feed a skittish snake we had. After feeling the burst of energy coming from the small animal while it died, I could understand junctedness, though it made me a bit nauseous. Let Go, Let Gen! Don ddraig@stattenfield.org don@stattenfield.org djaramillo@intarsiacorp.com rathorite@geocities.com ICQ: 10762090 (Work) ICQ: 2869199 (Home) AIM: DonJaramil & Ddraig001 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 16:08:12 -0700 Reply-To: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" Sender: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" From: Donald Jaramillo Subject: Settings? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Have the settings been knocked back to default (NOREPRO) again? I haven't gotten any of my messages since this morning. Wondering, Don ddraig@stattenfield.org don@stattenfield.org djaramillo@intarsiacorp.com rathorite@geocities.com ICQ: 10762090 (Work) ICQ: 2869199 (Home) AIM: DonJaramil & Ddraig001 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 16:50:40 -0700 Reply-To: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" Sender: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" From: Donald Jaramillo Subject: RANT: Frustration! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It could be due in part to a number of factors, no home internet access, money, pms and such.... but I'm feeling a bit frustrated here. I'm beginning to feel that despite the principles of Intimate Adventure, cooperation, and the like that the list isn't quite as safe space for us to be and be accepted for who we are. I find that I'm now having to who will find offense at me being who I am, expressing the things that are important in my life, so much of which is all linked together, including my take on the Sime~Gen universe and what its metaphors say to me. I wonder if we are going to have a simegen-g list where everyone becomes afraid to say anything in the least bit important for fear that someone will feel too challenged and become offended, and any serious discussions will have to go to a list ghetto, simegen-ma. It's like the old joke where St. Peter says, "Those are the [blanks], they think they're the only one's here. Do we have to tiptoe and whisper so as not to let anyone know that some of us are different? Esoterica is a big part of Jacqueline's life and so part of her Sime~Gen universe. I feel though that that part is being required to remain in the closet, "Don't Ask, Don't Tell." The dynamics of Sime and Gen interaction is a strong metaphor for male female personal and sexual dynamics, yet I'm seeing more and more resistance to discussing such topics in a frank, open, honest manner here. I saw this as a loving fan community. SF Fandom is usually such a diverse lot. A lot of us have spent much of our lives being on the outside, not accepted for our individuality. Given the principles of Intimate Adventure, I have to admit that I expected there to be a definite commitment to true communication, cooperation, and understanding, much like the unifying goal of the S~G universe. Seeing how much positive history everyone already seemed to have, I felt that I had found such a warm, fulfilling community, not just an academic mailing list. No, I'm finding myself holding back, concerned that I'll fall under some critical judgement for being who I am. I know that I am not alone here. I have talked to a few of our members over the last months who have felt so judged, attacked, and put down that they were on the verge of leaving this list. Maybe I expected too much of this list, this community. We are, after all, human. Still, it breaks my heart to see the conflicts, anger, fear, and intolerance. I guess that's it for now. Follow Your Bliss! Illigitimi non Carborundum! Don Jaramillo Poly Pagan A good person. ddraig@stattenfield.org don@stattenfield.org djaramillo@intarsiacorp.com rathorite@geocities.com ICQ: 10762090 (Work) ICQ: 2869199 (Home) AIM: DonJaramil & Ddraig001 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 15:19:15 -0700 Reply-To: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" Sender: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" From: Donald Jaramillo Subject: Metaphors & Parallels (Was: Misunderstandings: (Was: Rape)) Comments: To: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----Original Message----- From: J-Man To: SIMEGEN-L@ZEOR.SIMEGEN.COM Date: Thursday, September 17, 1998 4:39 PM Subject: Re: Misunderstandings: (Was: Re: Re: Rape) >> It's not that the woman retains control, but the man has to maintain >> control, constantly on his guard. >> >> It unfortunately opens up a tragic implication where the man can never allow >> himself to abandon himself to the ecstasy of the experience, but must always >> be "looking over his shoulder" at every moment. When a man cannot trust >> that yes actually means yes, > >Doesn't the parallel of Simes and Gens and NEED and Transfer control >seem interesting? Of course!!! It's so close! That's why I feel that it's not too difficult to see a connection between discussions about sexual politics and Sime~Gen. >I've often thought, as I read the SimeGen novels, how closely it >resembled how I myself felt about sex at times. Sometimes feeling the >NEED for it, sometimes the ATTRITION feeling when there was no one to be >intimate with. Yes, I am VERY familiar with the feelings of underdraw. It may not be a fatal condition, but at it's worst, it sure kicks dents in the quality of life and will to live. :-) >The control issue of constantly being aware of danger >points and changing body language, not unlike a Channel monitoring a >transfer. I see you understand. Follow Your Bliss!! Don ddraig@stattenfield.org don@stattenfield.org djaramillo@intarsiacorp.com rathorite@geocities.com ICQ: 10762090 (Work) ICQ: 2869199 (Home) AIM: DonJaramil & Ddraig001 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 15:26:25 -0700 Reply-To: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" Sender: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" From: Donald Jaramillo Subject: LOT & BDSM (Was: Misunderstandings: (Was: Rape)) Comments: To: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----Original Message----- From: Jenn V. To: SIMEGEN-L@ZEOR.SIMEGEN.COM Date: Thursday, September 17, 1998 4:32 PM Subject: Re: Misunderstandings: (Was: Re: Re: Rape) >Donald Jaramillo wrote: > >> It's not that the woman retains control, but the man has to maintain >> control, constantly on his guard. >> >> It unfortunately opens up a tragic implication where the man can never allow >> himself to abandon himself to the ecstasy of the experience, but must always >> be "looking over his shoulder" at every moment. When a man cannot trust >> that yes actually means yes. > > > >Sorry dears, but before you and Dancer go _too_ far along this track: do >you really think that the woman isn't doing the same thing? > >Certainly any woman who (I would consider) is worth the kind of men you two >are, would be watching /you/ for consent & enjoyment matters as closely as >you're watching /her/. You know any in my area? ;-) >(And in a perfect S~G world, BOTH lars are watching each other for >safety/pleasure/consent.) True. I believe that with perfect LOT, neither one has to monitor, ever (at least in principle). Something close to that, maybe one or the other would have to monitor, adapt for any instabilities. Likewise, in a healthy sexual relationship, one person or the other may be "in control" and the other one can let go. Isn't this some of what people seek to achieve in the BDSM community with their emphasis on "exchange of power." Sounds a little like transfer, doesn't it? Let Go! Let Gen! Don ddraig@stattenfield.org don@stattenfield.org djaramillo@intarsiacorp.com rathorite@geocities.com ICQ: 10762090 (Work) ICQ: 2869199 (Home) AIM: DonJaramil & Ddraig001 >-- > It's amazing where you can go with a completely false premise ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 16:14:31 -0700 Reply-To: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" Sender: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" From: Donald Jaramillo Subject: Off topic? (Was: Misunderstandings: (Was: Rape)) Comments: To: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----Original Message----- From: Dancer To: SIMEGEN-L@ZEOR.SIMEGEN.COM Date: Thursday, September 17, 1998 4:58 PM Subject: Re: Misunderstandings: (Was: Re: Re: Rape) >Donald Jaramillo wrote: >> >> It's not that the woman retains control, but the man has to maintain >> control, constantly on his guard. >> >> It unfortunately opens up a tragic implication where the man can never allow >> himself to abandon himself to the ecstasy of the experience, but must always >> be "looking over his shoulder" at every moment. When a man cannot trust >> that yes actually means yes, > >There's a small bit of my brain that never has any fun, but yes. You're >always slightly on the defensive, and with the metaphorical foot poised >over the brakes. BT, DT. :-) Unfortunately it's probably BD, SDT. ;-) That's what I realize is one of the things that was so wonderful about the couple of peak sacred sexuality experiences in my life. At those times, it was the closest to absolute trust and letting go--a full 4+ transfer. >[Some good S~G commentary snipped] > >I can't really comment _too_ much on S~G stuff at the moment. It's been >long and long and long and long since I read the books, and I am >_deliberately_ holding off so that I can help proof the RPG from an >outsider's perspective, insofar as is possible. WHAT!?!?! I how am I supposed to keep things ontopic when you go and snip it! :-) >> >All, IMO, of course. This is how I've lived my life. This isn't the >> >screwed up bit. >> > >> >D >> >> For me, I can see the effects. I long to be able to have at least one >> partner with whom I can be all that I am, without reservation, as much as >> any Channel and Companion. > >Isn't that the traditional function of a mistress? At least until your political enemies find out about it and leak it to the press.... Actually, I have seen that principle. Also I've known some people who maintain a separate non-sexual BDSM relationship to get that release independent of their sexual partner(s). With my own relationship, my wife found that she was able to let go with another largely because that other didn't have the same baggage and history she and I have. That gave her the emotional, spiritual boost to enable us to work together. I'm not sure how to relate that last bit to Sime~Gen..... Oh well... Follow Your Bliss!! Don ddraig@stattenfield.org don@stattenfield.org djaramillo@intarsiacorp.com rathorite@geocities.com ICQ: 10762090 (Work) ICQ: 2869199 (Home) AIM: DonJaramil & Ddraig001 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 09:52:49 +1000 Reply-To: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" Sender: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" From: Dancer Subject: Re: Uh, I must have missed something MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kandace Klumper wrote: > > I must have missed something. When did the list change, yet again? And do I have to resubscribe to the digest? I've been getting list posts today, when I shouldn't. I am not sure that the various flags carried over, so yes, you may have to set digest again. Apologies for anyt inconvenience caused. D -- -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GAT d- s++: a C++++$ UL++++B+++S+++C++H++U++V+++$ P+++$ L+++ E- W+++(--)$ N++ w++$>--- t+ 5++ X+() R+ tv b++++ DI+++ e- h-@ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 10:26:39 +1000 Reply-To: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" Sender: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" From: Dancer Subject: Re: Intimate Details MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Hannah M.G. Shapero" wrote: > > > Hanna is right, of course. > > My name is spelled Hannah with a final H. > > > However, I think we have to say that it is good, in a way, that we feel > > that we can trust each other enough to reveal parts of our lives without > > fear of judgement or ridicule. This just isn't the place to do it. > > Right. > > I also would like to remind members of this List of these facts: > > There are people on this List who DO believe that monogamy is the only > right way to have a marriage or at least a long-term-relationship. And > these people may be offended by flippant remarks about monogamy, as if it > were just some silly notion dreamed up by one repressed society. > In both Judaism and Christianity, monogamy, and exclusive sex within > monogamy, is sacred. Evidently, in Paganism, this is not the case. I'll take up a minor point. I disagree with the use of the terms 'pagan' and 'paganism'. They are misapplied in these cases, and may come across as either insulting or inappropriate, especially when it is used as an epithet, and widely applied to those with differing opinions. You've tarred me with that brush a few times in previous posts. My own jewish heritage doesn't count, merely because I can accept that people have a right to believe as they choose, or not to believe at all? I mean 'Grrrrr', in the last one you as much as said to me (here's a paraphrase) 'My beliefs are the only right ones, you silly pagan'..at least that's the way I took it. I simply do not think that that is appropriate. Especially for _this_ list, considering. I don't mind criticism, but I'd like it to be a bit more thoughtful than a stoning. > I have heard unnecessarily negative (and unfounded) remarks against > Christianity on this List. Perhaps in a generally Pagan atmosphere it is > considered OK to criticize Christianity. But if it were Judaism that > were being criticized - or Paganism - then there might be quite an outcry. Indeed :) Pagan refers to 'hick' country attitudes during the era of the expansion of the roman empire around approximately 200-47BC, and describes the sort of undirected agnosticism of much of the peasantry scattered across europe and england, who, in the ignorance of any structured religions, cheerfully worshipped interesting looking trees, fires or the moon. Pontius Pilate referred to the followers of Christ as Pagans, at one point, and by the definition of the word, he was correct for a short while. The term 'Pagan' was in only occasional use throughout the next 16 centuries or so, until it was brought back into popular use to describe well..country people. All of them. Christianity and Judaism had become city religions in the west, and a Pagan was simply somone who didn't live in a city, regardless of their religion....but because of the differing religious status between urban and rural, the meaning began to twist over the next four-hundred years. Which brings us to where we are now. Some people use the word as a badge of pride. Christians generally use the word to refer, insultingly, to everyone who isn't a christian, jews included. Jews generally use the term to refer to anyone of a faith not based on judaism. Beyond that there are a general catalogue of misuses. > As Lady Eliza has said, this List is not the place for intimate sexual > discussions or a large amount of personal "sharing." If such things have > a direct relationship to Sime~Gen universe, science fiction, writing, or > publishing, or other things like that, fine. But the number of posts which > have little or nothing to do with the S~topic is multiplying quickly and I > am having to delete most of what I get on this List which is not what I > want to do. That's true, we've wandered considerably off-topic in a variety of areas (including this one), but exploring certain topics too far may offend. Quite right. D -- -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GAT d- s++: a C++++$ UL++++B+++S+++C++H++U++V+++$ P+++$ L+++ E- W+++(--)$ N++ w++$>--- t+ 5++ X+() R+ tv b++++ DI+++ e- h-@ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 20:15:23 -0500 Reply-To: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" Sender: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" From: Marge Robbins Subject: Re: Misunderstandings: (Was: Re: Re: Rape) In-Reply-To: <17D334A9C2C5D111A2AF00A0C9AF00BD01C97F@GALILEO> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > > Monogamy would be folding yourself into one pretty shape, possibly for life. > Polygamy is about folding yourself into many different pretty shapes. ;-) > > >> > >> Good lord no..what a foolish notion. You're thinking of oregano :) > > > That's a spice, used mainly in Italian cooking. Origama is the art of > Paper > >folding. > > NoNoNoNo.... > > Didn't you know? Spice is the plural of spouse! Which rhyimes with mouse and house Marge ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 20:29:28 -0500 Reply-To: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" Sender: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" From: Kennet Gencks Subject: Writer's Humor Comments: To: SIMEGEN-L@ZEOR.SIMEGEN.COM Comments: cc: gwynhwyfar@bigfoot.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Just a little amusement someone sent me...thought I would share. Top Ten Oft Forgotten Rules of Proper English 10) Prepositions are not words that you end a sentence with. 9) Always avoid all annoying alliteration. 8) Foreign words and phrases are not apropos. 7) Don't use contractions; they aren't necessary. 6) It is wrong to ever split an infinitive. 5) Avoid cliches like the plague! 4) Don't be redundant; don't use more words than necessary; it's highly superfluous. 3) Analogies in writing are like feathers on a snake. 2) Who needs rhetorical questions? And the Number ONE Oft Forgotten Rule of Proper English is: Exaggeration is a billion times worse than understatement. Someone responded: 11. Eschew neologisms. 12. And don't use no double negatives, neither. 13. The use of jargon obfusicates meta-linguistic comprehension. 14. Trendy pop culture references are way cool. NOT!! 15. Don't use a word unless you can properly spel it. 16. Readers just LOVE it when you're sarcastic! 17. Um, if you don't mind my saying so, it's kind of annoying when you sort of, you know, qualify what you're trying to say. 18. "Don't use quotes to try to bolster your arguments. They make you sound like you can't think for yourself. And don't give characters silly names, either." --Shrapnel P. Wuggermahugger 19. Don't forget to use punctuation you avoid run on sentences that way 20. Word order everything is. 21. Slang is totally bogus, man! 22. "Make sure you attribute your quotes correctly or you could end up sounding like a real bozo." --William Shakespeare 23. When writing instructions: Secondly, make sure you use Q-36 transductors that people understand. Thirdly, don't insult the idiots who will be reading them. And firstly, make sure you put things in the right order. 24. Always check your pen before writing to make sure you don't run out of ink in the middle of 25. Don't correct people's grammar. It's impolite. And leave the lists to David Letterman. 26. Wouldst thou use an archaic turn of phrase? S'wounds! Perish the thought! 27. Don't condescend to your reader. And stop fidgeting while I'm talking to you! 28. Don't pretend familiarity with your reader, honey. 29. 5-year-old Tiffany Sweetness, who is dying of cancer, says that all she wants for Christmas is for people to stop using cheap sentiment in their writing. She says it bothers her 3-legged dog, Lucky. 30. Overdramatization in writing is bringing about the end of civilization as we know it! 31. A man walks into a bar and says, "Leave out all the corny old jokes," so I bit him. 32. Make sure you use the right word in the right fusebox. 33. Try not to stereotype people, even though I know it's difficult for your kind. 34. We're all adults here, so let's avoid euphemisms for things like number 2, sleeping together, and those parts of the body that are, you know, "down there". 35. If you go on and on about conspiracy theories, you're just playing into the hands of the Illuminati. 36. Always finish what you...wait a minute, I'll be right back. 37. Plagiarism is cowardly. The only thing we have to fear is fear itself. 38. Censors should be banned from the internet. 39. Don't you just hate it when people complain all the time? 40. I'd tell you a really important rule about remembering things, but I forgot what I was going to say. 41. I'd tell you a really important rule about procrastination, but I'd rather wait until later. 42. Whatever you do, don't try to rhyme. It's so hard to read, and it takes so much time. 43. Copy this rule and send it to ten of your friends: Don't send chain letters. 44. sentences should always start with a capital letter and end with a period 45. Those annoying sentence fragments. 46. Don't post flames, you clueless Nazi! 47. THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO NEED FOR SHOUTING!!!!! 48. Don't spread gossip. Even that awful Spermwhale T. Jackson, who I hear on good authority is having an affair with Tootsie Trashmasher Tinkletummy's neighbor's niece, is entitled to privacy. 49. If you spread urban legends, the GOOD LEGENDS virus will seep into your computer through the modem and trash your hard drive while you sleep! This really happened to a friend of my dentist's brother-in-law. 50. Sequels are stupid, and I'll have more to say on this subject in the next installment of this list. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 23:24:04 +1000 Reply-To: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" Sender: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" From: LadyEliza Comments: To: simegen-l@simegen.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" If you aren't on digest and you want to be it's simple - send an email to listserv@simegen.com with this command in the body and no topic set simegen-l digest That works :) Sorry for the inconvience. Eliza ambrov Halwyn Companion to Zoe Farris ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 21:00:09 -0500 Reply-To: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" Sender: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" From: Jean Lorrah Subject: Re: Digest vs Regular Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" The change activated my jean.lorrah@murraystate.edu and keon@simegen.com accounts, which were set to nomail. I sent "set simegen-l nomail" to LISTSERV@SECURITY.CALOUNDRA.QLD.GOV.AU, and got confirmations back within minutes (and stopped getting three copies of every message). I also sneakily sent the digest command "from" my Juno address by temporarily entering that as my return address in this account--I'll know if it worked when I do a routine download from the Juno account tomorrow. There's no need to bother Eliza or Torun unless "set simegen-l digest" to the temporary address doesn't work for you. Jean At 07:36 PM 9/18/98 +1000, Eliza wrote: >If you are use to getting your list mail digest and you are suddenly >getting individual posts can you please email Torun torun@gte.net or me >ladye@gothic.net.au and we will set it back for you as it appears that some >(probibly all?) of the digest settings were lost. > >Sorry for the inconvience. > >Eliza ambrov Halwyn >Companion to Zoe Farris > Jean Lorrah A21711F@msumusik.mursuky.edu. If no response in 72 hours, try Jean1@Juno.com. No one is much pleased with a companion who does not increase, in some respect, their fondness for themselves. -Samuel Johnson http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3439 http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4165 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 19:26:28 -0700 Reply-To: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" Sender: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" From: Jaye Subject: Re: RANT: Frustration! In-Reply-To: <006701bde35f$463ddea0$5a6856ce@djaramillo.intarsiacorp.com > Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Don - I empathise with your feeling less safe with people getting into friction. I think I understand both the need/wish to talk about deep subjects and the reasons that some are finding it hard. The things we've been talking about are things that many people have very, very strong feelings about (and many of us have personal issues around becuase of past trauma.) The thing I want most is for eveyrone to feel as safe as possible (I know that's by definition impossible, but it doesn't stop me wanting.) That means compromises, since there's such diversity in us. That diversity I see as a STRENGTH. I don't know how we will work out how we do it, but I believe it's doable. The controversy reminds me of something years ago... a friend of mine was on the GEnie Romance RT (that's a discussion "area" on GEnie)... and she said that the sysops would return letters to her if she commented that she wished some author would have gotten more into some aspect of some character... because it was flaming the author. I think, in my own life, that it's VERY possible to disagree and to talk about where we're coming from without putting anyone else down. One thing I try to remember (sometimes it's hard) is that people don't hear what I say as I say it, often. To illustrate, I once asked my mom to just not "fuss" over me because I got frustrated when she did... she got ALL huffy. Fortunately, I thought to ASK her what she heard me say... "You said I'm an awful person becuase i was fussing over you!" ???????? We sat and talked for 2-3 hours that night, and I'm not completely sure she ever was able to separate "I'm frustrated" from "You're a horrible person" in her mind... (She died a few years ago. ther'es no way to ask her, currently.) I've only been here for... well, since February. (I'm not in a counting mode at the moment). I still "feel" like a newbie. I've never met anyone on this list in person, that I'm aware of. I've only met one other S~G fan in RL -- and she's my best friend. I know that groups NORMALLY have smooth places and rough periods. In fact, there's a very well-researched and defined "phases of net group interaction" that i've got in a file somehwere. One of the possible resolutions of this kind of conflict IS that the list settles into only allowing certain kinds of posts. Another is that they get into prolongued flame-wars. A third is that they work through a few things together and continue posting a variety of ideas and opinions, without putting each other down. Another is that the list either disbands or splits, or individual members leave in large numbers. If anyone's interested, I'd be glad to dig it out and post it. We're right in the beginnings of a "rough" phase, from the look of it, and that can be a Very Postive Thing, depending on how we choose to handle it. :) When I came here, I had to skip the esoterica stuff. It just felt too threatening. (I'd always been aware that there was an element in the books, but I just skimmed and ignored those sections in general.) I still don't "buy" everything of it, but I'm less scared. I think it's a Good Thing. It FEELS like I have a lot more flexibility now. AND reading what I could and skipping what I needed to has helped in a lot of ways. I'm really GLAD that there tend to be some things on the list that are just past what I can comfortably read. (I know I'm perhpas a little "weird" in that, but it beats where I was at when I was really rigid about what I'd be willing to read. I still have things I don't want to, and may never want to. But just like TV and classes and movies and seb sites, the ultimate "censorship" that does not infringe on others' rights is the 'censorship" of just skipping what I'm not into. For me, cruel and unusual punishment would probably be sitting through an accounting class. For someone else, that'd be heaven.) Maybe I'm responding differently to some of this conflict because I've been through a bunch of similar rounds in survivor lists over the years and seen the lists work through it and become even closer. I hope we do the same. On monogamy Yes, Kierestelli, I do know what non-monogamous women go through in this culture. From the inside out. It's hell. It's terrifying, it's lonely, it's awful. I believe we can comment on what different religions say on sexual mores, what philosophers have said (and formulate our own philosophy if we wish, whether anyone ever agrees with us or not), what research tells us about causes and effects of non-monogamy vs. monogamy, what people we feel most comfortable being around, whom we would choose to trust as a close friend, and what we've seen/felt that's worked or not worked for peole we've known. But I agree with you that being judged doesn't help. It only divides and hurts. For me, it's much more important to learn from the consequences of previous behavior and go from there than to hear that someone else doesn't like how I'm behaving. (Of course, what they choose to do based on my behavior is part OF those consequences i get to learn from! It's CRUCIAL data.) I hope that the people who believe that monogamy is "the only way" will realize that that's not where everyone's head is at, and that telling us it's "bad" doesn't do anything other than encouraging us to hide in order to blend in. I don't know about everyone else, but one reason I read SF in the first place is that I don't enjoy blending in. I like being a separate tile in a mosaic or a bead in a necklace or a stitch in a counted cross-stitch picture -- not identical to the others, but part of hopefully a whole which is beautiful BECAUSE they're all different. On a simply practical level, can you see a society where everyone was an inventor and no one a workman? Or everyone a cook, but no one bussed tables? OR everyone drew pictures but no one had galleries to seel them? or everyone wanted to do bookkeeping but no one was a salesman? I LOVE diversity! :) And I really think we need all of our strengths and weaknesses to make a neat SF community or economic community or academic community. :) THANK you for the congrats on the name. To tell you the truth, I'm already getting tired of explaining... I did 3 times to 3 different people in 3 different offices today. But it's worth getting through to use the name. :) I'm telling people the 'n'ha' is the female equivalent of 'ben' in ben Gurion. So far it's working. Some want to know where it's from, others don't. As for "what language" I say "Science Fiction." :) The funny thing is that I don't think I'd enjoy the global game any more than I would Monopoly. But I have a feeling a lot of other people WOULD, and would pay good money for it. Anything worth doing is worth doing poorly at first. Jaye orchestra@wingedharper.com www.wingedharper.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 19:55:26 -0700 Reply-To: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" Sender: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" From: Kierestelli Aradia Morgan Subject: Re: Misunderstandings: (Was: Re: Re: Rape) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 18 Sep 1998, Marge Robbins wrote: > > Monogamy would be folding yourself into one pretty shape, possibly for life. > > Polygamy is about folding yourself into many different pretty shapes. ;-) > > > > >> Good lord no..what a foolish notion. You're thinking of oregano :) > > > > > That's a spice, used mainly in Italian cooking. Origama is the art of > > > Paper folding. > > > Actually that's *origami*. Origama doesn't mean anything. And *arigatami* is a blessing or value, and in sacred sexuality refers to the thing you share only with your most special one/s. Like transfer with your matchmate (obtopic ref) > > NoNoNoNo.... > > > > Didn't you know? Spice is the plural of spouse! > > Which rhymes with mouse and house > And if you have too many spice you may need a couple more hice, and hope you don't get mice! love, Kiri ;) ****************************************************************************** Kierestelli Aradia Morgan tiamat@tsoft.com "She lost her dream playing at love; she forgot that she had to let her mind shine all the time. Little by little, she is learning to understand the meaning of things they never taught her in school." -- OZAKI Yutaka, 1965-1992 *>i<* "If you really want to enjoy life, you must work quietly and humbly and realize your delusions of grandeur." -- Mark Helprin ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 22:23:45 -0700 Reply-To: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" Sender: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" From: Cheryl Wolverton Subject: Work: Theme MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm back again...with more questions. JL has tried to pound 'theme' into my head.....my 15 year old daughter gets it faster than me though...[she says I taught her...uh huh...suuuuure]....anyway......how do you guys pick out the theme of your book..... how do you SET UP your book? do you start with Theme? and then Conflicts? and move out? Or do you start with an idea, a conflict.....and then work it around a theme? or or...or....how? I usually get a 'flash' an idea....and then write out the conflicts....only with one book have I known the theme from before I ever wrote a word on paper......... Cheryl Wolverton This SIde of Paradise Aug 98 The Best Christmas Ever Dec 98 A Mother's Love May 99 http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/1037 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 20:19:56 -0700 Reply-To: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" Sender: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" From: Kierestelli Aradia Morgan Subject: Re: Off topic? In-Reply-To: <006601bde35f$425050c0$5a6856ce@djaramillo.intarsiacorp.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 18 Sep 1998, Donald Jaramillo wrote: > That's what I realize is one of the things that was so wonderful about the > couple of peak sacred sexuality experiences in my life. At those times, it > was the closest to absolute trust and letting go--a full 4+ transfer. > Absolutely. I've been there too, and it's *nice*... > >[Some good S~G commentary snipped] > > > >I can't really comment _too_ much on S~G stuff at the moment. It's been > >long and long and long and long since I read the books, and I am > >_deliberately_ holding off so that I can help proof the RPG from an > >outsider's perspective, insofar as is possible. > > WHAT!?!?! I how am I supposed to keep things ontopic when you go and snip > it! :-) > I'd just like to say one thing here. I know I post a lot of OT stuff that kind people like Don make topical comments on. I read the S~G books in junior high school and LOVED them...but I read them at the library because I was a broke kid, and I don't own them, and I couldn't get them in PB like I did Darkover, so I didn't get to pore over them page by page as some of you all have done. I'm trying to get copies to keep but it's hard, and I won't be fluent in the lingo again for a while. So please be patient with me if I post about the issues people raise that I CAN respond to. I can respond to philosophy and I can respond to writer stuff. I can't talk about the Tecton and the Distect and the disjunction process the way some of you all can...yet. It doesn't mean that I don't want to. I could have when I was 16 but that was a while ago. Don talked me into joining the list because I told him that the only real Tarot teaching I had ever had came from Jacqueline and I used to write to her but she was really busy and I missed her. He told me that JL wanted more esoterica people on the list and so I joined. But I'm RELEARNING S~G from the rest of you. I am primarily an occultist and a writer and an anime fan, but I love S~G, I'm glad the books are coming back in print so I can buy them this time, and I think I have something to offer coming from different areas of fandom than most of you. I lost track with Darkover fandom (which is where I met the ones of you I do know) and got into other stuff. I don't think hearing about it will do anything but enrich people's perspective. I tend to think of S~G in the light of tantra (sexual magick) and vampirism as well as in terms of sexual politics and energy transfer, and the books seemed to me, even as an inexperienced teenager, to put into words sensations and feelings and thoughts that I did not have words for. So now do you understand why I come at things from the perspective I do? Someone privately wrote me a rather nasty letter accusing me of flaming Hannah. I thought about quitting but decided against it because I have also made other connections that mean something to me in the short time I have been here. Just because I disagree with Hannah does not mean that I hate her or that I want to hurt her. I was on her side on the moral relativism issue. If she was personally hurt by anything I said, I'm sorry, but that was not my intent. Hannah probably knows that. She's made a few adamant posts herself. Also, I'm used to having philosophical discussions where people don't take it personally if you disagree with them, even to the point of taking apart what they say point by point, as long as you don't get personal and are prepared to defend your statements. Like most UU's I love a good debate. It is not personal. Please don't take it that way. I am admittedly somewhat anti-Christianity but I am not anti-Christians as people. I don't like what Christianity has become and I don't see that I can really know what it was supposed to be. But I love and respect many Christian individuals, most notably my family. I haven't said a tenth of what I really think about the issue on this list because I *know* it's not appropriate. Everything I've said, I said in response to something that was posted and I thought it was appropriate given the context. > >> For me, I can see the effects. I long to be able to have at least one > >> partner with whom I can be all that I am, without reservation, as much as > >> any Channel and Companion. > > > >Isn't that the traditional function of a mistress? > > At least until your political enemies find out about it and leak it to the > press.... > There's that...although you don't have to be a President to have one. > With my own relationship, my wife found that she was able to let go with > another largely because that other didn't have the same baggage and history > she and I have. That gave her the emotional, spiritual boost to enable us > to work together. > > I'm not sure how to relate that last bit to Sime~Gen..... Oh well... > Well, if you got into a bad situation with your matchmate, mightn't you need a professional channel or someone like that to straighten it out? (Don't flame me if this is stupid. It's been 7 years at least since I read much S~G stuff...although I'm planning to dive into the website when I have time, but it has to be when I have time and can afford to have the phone off line for hours and hours, because I know I'll fall into it just like a nice hotbath...) Love, Kiri ****************************************************************************** Kierestelli Aradia Morgan tiamat@tsoft.com "She lost her dream playing at love; she forgot that she had to let her mind shine all the time. Little by little, she is learning to understand the meaning of things they never taught her in school." -- OZAKI Yutaka, 1965-1992 *>i<* "If you really want to enjoy life, you must work quietly and humbly and realize your delusions of grandeur." -- Mark Helprin ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 22:30:55 -0700 Reply-To: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" Sender: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" From: Cheryl Wolverton Subject: Unity and After MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit How developed was Sime Territory just after unity? I'm wondering just how long it took the Tecton to get things in place, and just how fast everything developed....regarding what jean said earlier in a post....slide rails weren't there say, twenty years after....how did they reach the people out territory....get word out...around..? would love to hear some more about the developments of that time period.... They didn't have batteries then so did they use whale oil? Indoor plumbing? Cheryl Wolverton This SIde of Paradise Aug 98 The Best Christmas Ever Dec 98 A Mother's Love May 99 http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/1037 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 01:33:35 +1000 Reply-To: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" Sender: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" From: LadyEliza Subject: sex, point of view, and apropriability Comments: To: simegen-l@simegen.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" This all brings me to mind of a story I once heard of a French impressionist painter - I can't remember what one, lets say Monet. Two elderly women were looking at a picture by the artist in a gallery - the artist was, unknown to them, behind them. One turned to the other and said "That is really disguisting - a man and a women disrobing prior to having a torrid affair!" The other woman agreed that it should not be allowed. The artist, unable to stand it, said "Excuse me ladies, but that is a man and his wife getting dressed to go to the opera. Kindly take your filthy eyes from my nice clean painting!" Sometimes it's not what you are reading when you read a post so much as what you are thinking. I have seen people take offence where none was intended - and I have seen people take offence where other people can see no offence. The reason I joined this list wasn't to learn about writing, it wasn't to learn more about the simegen universe (to be honest I'm greedy, I want to make up my own mind about what things mean in the books, and not have them second guessed by other people or even have my own private ideas contradicted by the authors!). The reason I joined the list was because I was a fan in limbo for 10 years. I didn't know anyone else who had read - or even heard - of the books. Finding people who not only had read them but who was as fanatical aboout them as I was!!! well - how could I not be on the list? I wont say I don't care about their lifestyles. I do! I care dreadfully! Knowing as much as possible about these people makes me feel accepted as family. We share similarities, which is nice, but even more special are our differences. We come from different cultures, different lands, different religions and beliefs. Not all of us agree on everything that is said, and that is interesting too. But one thing binds us all together and that is the indiscribable feeling we get when we read simegen. Perhaps we are family? Not every member of a family agrees with every other member - but when the chips are down, family comes before the world. I would like to think that, dispite the differences of opinion, the people on this list would defend each other against the opinions of the "outside" world. This being so - I sign myself Eliza ambrov Simegen ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 20:34:20 -0700 Reply-To: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" Sender: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" From: Kierestelli Aradia Morgan Subject: Re: Work: Theme In-Reply-To: <016001bde38d$ad603820$c364d6d1@cherylwo> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 18 Sep 1998, Cheryl Wolverton wrote: > I'm back again...with more questions. JL has tried to pound 'theme' into my > head.....my 15 year old daughter gets it faster than me though...[she says I > taught her...uh huh...suuuuure]....anyway......how do you guys pick out the > theme of your book..... > > how do you SET UP your book? > > do you start with Theme? and then Conflicts? and move out? > I start with a character, who tells me his or her story, and then the other characters start talking. I feel strongly that they are telling ME the story! I used to think I was nuts until I found out that Alice Walker and MZB have the same situation. They just sit in my head and sometimes they argue...with each other, and with me. They all have different perspectives and issues. Marcus, in particular, in my main series of works, is VERY argumentative. I don't even know if I have a theme, although most of the people I've shared my work with liked it. Jean told me that my main character was a good example of the "hidden prince" motif...but that's not the same thing as theme. Most of my novel-length stuff has more than one moral issue or question in it, if that's what you mean. > > Or do you start with an idea, a conflict.....and then work it around a > theme? > The conflicts tend to rise out of the characters' interactions and goals. F'rinstance, Liuterin's goal of getting control over her life is in conflict with Tarakh's goal of getting back in touch with his old lover (whom Liuterin was in her last life) and Kirillin's goal of using the political symbol that Likka Kirillin is to further her own interests... OR, in another set of stuff I'm working on, we have a 16-year-old half-Japanese gay boy who started out with the goal of getting himself back to Kyoto where things made sense. He ended up in America when his parents died...his American family insisted that since he was a US citizen he and his sister should come live with them. Now he's realized that the American side of his family is involved with some nasty stuff and that the only people who are really in a position to find out what all of it is are himself and his American boyfriend...and hopefully to do so before his younger sister's corruption can be completed. > or or...or....how? > > I usually get a 'flash' an idea....and then write out the conflicts....only > with one book have I known the theme from before I ever wrote a word on > paper......... > I think that's OK...you have to write it however it works for you and then tighten it up and fine-tune it later. blessings, Kiri ****************************************************************************** Kierestelli Aradia Morgan tiamat@tsoft.com "She lost her dream playing at love; she forgot that she had to let her mind shine all the time. Little by little, she is learning to understand the meaning of things they never taught her in school." -- OZAKI Yutaka, 1965-1992 *>i<* "If you really want to enjoy life, you must work quietly and humbly and realize your delusions of grandeur." -- Mark Helprin ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 17:17:33 -1000 Reply-To: Torun@gte.net Sender: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" From: David and/or Torun Almer Organization: Starfire Retreat Bed and Breakfast, Kailua-Kona, HI Subject: Re: DO NOT ASK ME FOR HELP THIS WEEK MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Eliza, Most sorry - I really did know - I just can't type. OK, I won't ask you for help this week. Torun LadyEliza wrote: > > > > email eliza@gothic.net.au or > >torun@gte.net. > > > > that's ladye@gothic.net.au not eliza@gothic.net.au > > Eliza -- http://home1.gte.net/torun/ Starfire Retreat Bed and Breakfast Kailua-Kona, HI ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 23:16:28 -0700 Reply-To: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" Sender: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" From: Cheryl Wolverton Subject: Re: DO NOT ASK ME FOR HELP THIS WEEK Comments: To: Torun@gte.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit er...Eliza.......I was wondering....could you help me out here....how wide is Australia....and what time zone are you in and....and.....and..... [runs and hides] Cheryl Wolverton This Side of Paradise Aug 98 The Best Christmas Ever Dec 98 A Mother's Love May 99 http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/1037 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 14:27:41 +1000 Reply-To: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" Sender: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" From: Dancer Subject: Re: DO NOT ASK ME FOR HELP THIS WEEK MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cheryl Wolverton wrote: > > er...Eliza.......I was wondering....could you help me out here....how wide > is Australia....and what time zone are you in and....and.....and..... > [runs and hides] > Cheryl Wolverton > This Side of Paradise Aug 98 > The Best Christmas Ever Dec 98 > A Mother's Love May 99 > http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/1037 About the same size as the USA in all dimensions, except the fourth, where it's sort of a bit bigger. She's in AEST (GMT-10), along with the bulk of the population. We just cluster over here where there's water. :) D -- -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GAT d- s++: a C++++$ UL++++B+++S+++C++H++U++V+++$ P+++$ L+++ E- W+++(--)$ N++ w++$>--- t+ 5++ X+() R+ tv b++++ DI+++ e- h-@ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 02:36:47 +1000 Reply-To: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" Sender: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" From: LadyEliza Subject: another wonderful example of not changing topics Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Re: DO NOT ASK ME FOR HELP THIS WEEK I was not aware that I had even sent a message to the list with this topic. Feel free to ask me for help - it's Jenn and Dancer who are going away. My email is ladye@gothic.net.au Eliza ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 23:51:44 -0700 Reply-To: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" Sender: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" From: Cheryl Wolverton Subject: Re: another wonderful example of not changing topics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit rofl....hugs hon!!! I just couldn't resist posting my silly note....well....you see...they have to have people like that during sime gen time....that just love to tease;) Cheryl Wolverton This SIde of Paradise Aug 98 The Best Christmas Ever Dec 98 A Mother's Love May 99 http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/1037 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 14:44:04 +1000 Reply-To: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" Sender: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" From: Dancer Subject: Re: another wonderful example of not changing topics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit LadyEliza wrote: > > Re: DO NOT ASK ME FOR HELP THIS WEEK > > I was not aware that I had even sent a message to the list with this topic. > > Feel free to ask me for help - it's Jenn and Dancer who are going away. > > My email is ladye@gothic.net.au > > Eliza Jenn sent it out. D -- -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GAT d- s++: a C++++$ UL++++B+++S+++C++H++U++V+++$ P+++$ L+++ E- W+++(--)$ N++ w++$>--- t+ 5++ X+() R+ tv b++++ DI+++ e- h-@ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 22:41:46 -0700 Reply-To: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" Sender: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" From: Tony Zbaraschuk Subject: Re: Unity and After In-Reply-To: <016601bde38e$ad961fc0$c364d6d1@cherylwo> from "Cheryl Wolverton" at Sep 18, 98 10:30:55 pm Content-Type: text Cheryl asked: > How developed was Sime Territory just after unity? It's rather hard to tell; Jean, I think, has mentioned something about a "late 18th-century" level of technology, though with less industrialization. _Ambrov Keon_ doesn't feel like that, but then Keon's a relatively poor Householding in a backward frontier area, so maybe that works out all right. HoZ and ZD don't really go into the technology (though the Gen Army has explosive artillery, which in our history was a mid- to late-19th century development with a few precursors earlier (notably naval mortars)). HoZ did have the Householdings as fairly major industrial efforts (Zeor, for instance, having a cloth industry and looms of sufficient capability to weave patterned cloth, if I'm remembering the Arensti design competition in enough detail.) > I'm wondering just how long it took the Tecton to get things in place, and > I'm wondering just how long it took the Tecton to get things in place, and > just how fast everything developed....regarding what jean said earlier in a > post....slide rails weren't there say, twenty years after....how did they > reach the people out territory....get word out...around..? would love to > hear some more about the developments of that time period.... > > They didn't have batteries then so did they use whale oil? Indoor plumbing? Indoor plumbing, probably. Sime Territory water supply systems are probably a bit primitive (then again, they _have_ to have something like that for the Pen systems or dysentery & related things will wipe out the Pen Gens before they ever get to changeover). Risa recalls a cholera epidemic, which is pretty much diagnostic of bad water supply systems. Gen Territory (especially the industrial cores which we haven't seen so far) is probably better-off, but maybe not too much. Whale oil, being a sea product, is probably mostly a Gen Territory item. (See earlier archive discussion as to why Gens are much more likely than Simes to have large fleets). There are other oils available (canola oil, for instance, or various animal oils or beeswax for interior lighting). OTOH, they may have electricity in a few areas in Sime Territory. I don't think we've seen it, but some of the richer Householdings may have generators (though if Zeor's keep-the-head-low attitude in HoZ is common, they may not use them very much.) There's probably nothing even remotely like today's national power net, though -- until Unity, anything even _close_ to the frontiers is too unstable for power transmission infrastructure to survive. It'll take considerable time afterwards to build that infrastructure, but you might get electric lines run from hydroelectric plants to major cities, oh, about 25-50 years after Unity, with the process nearly complete by Digen's time. Tony Z ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 22:49:51 -0700 Reply-To: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" Sender: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" From: Tony Zbaraschuk Subject: Re: Off topic? In-Reply-To: from "Kierestelli Aradia Morgan" at Sep 18, 98 08:19:56 pm Content-Type: text Kiri wrote: > > Also, I'm used to having philosophical discussions where people don't take > it personally if you disagree with them, even to the point of taking apart > what they say point by point, as long as you don't get personal and are > prepared to defend your statements. I think as long as we can take things in this spirit things will work out well. I've been in some fairly interesting discussions of this sort. However, we may end up having to agree that certain topics are just too inflammatory to bring up (most civilized debate forums these days try not to bring up gun control or abortion, for example.) Another one, this time S~G: I don't bring up detailed demographic analysis, because it would rip the heart right out of the universe and leave us without much of a place to play Tony Z ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 01:15:57 -0500 Reply-To: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" Sender: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" From: Jean Lorrah Subject: Re: Unity and After Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 10:30 PM 9/18/98 -0700, Cheryl wrote: >How developed was Sime Territory just after unity? Not very. See _Ambrov Keon_ and _Zelerod's Doom_ for the BEST-case scenario, as Gulf was technologically ahead of the other North America Sime territories of the day. >I'm wondering just how long it took the Tecton to get things in place, and >just how fast everything developed....regarding what jean said earlier in a >post....slide rails weren't there say, twenty years after....how did they >reach the people out territory....get word out...around..? would love to >hear some more about the developments of that time period.... It was sheer hell trying to get enough channels and Donors/Companions across North America in a horse-and-buggy era, and at the same time disjunct all the junct Simes. That it happened at all was, to put it simply, a miracle. Hard, hard, hard work that would NOT have worked except that for once in a thousand years, God smiled and cooperated. Jean >They didn't have batteries then so did they use whale oil? Indoor plumbing? Whale oil among Gens along the coasts; vegetable oil everywhere else. Indoor plumbing is easy; it was never lost in Gen Territories, and was quickly resurrected in-T when actual Sime governments were formed. Jean Jean Lorrah A21711F@msumusik.mursuky.edu. If no response in 72 hours, try Jean1@Juno.com. No one is much pleased with a companion who does not increase, in some respect, their fondness for themselves. -Samuel Johnson http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3439 http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4165 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 03:38:27 -0400 Reply-To: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen F