========================================================================= Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 23:05:08 PST Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: David Robinson Subject: fantasy discussion Content-Type: text/plain In one of the messages pertaining to the fantasy-escapist personality, someone described a fiction writer as one who lives in a fantasy world as an observer. I disagree. Almost everything that I write, I first live. Usually in my head but not always. It's a bit frightening how realistic one can be if the experience is direct. Of course, that can draw one funny looks from one's friends and loved ones; as well as a comfortable room with padded walls if one ventures too far into something considered odd. Please don't remind me that many of the situations have no exact duplicate. (Where to find a Sime?) Surely someone in your life has told you to 'put yourself in someone else'd shoes'. That is, after all, the best exercise for imagination I have yet found. Also, note to Don- may I steal your "Namaste" closure? I quite liked that. David ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 06:41:57 -0600 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jean Lorrah Subject: TECH: Who is shadorat@proxy4.ba.best.com? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Who is, or used to be, shadorat@proxy4.ba.best.com? E-mail to this address, which is included in the SMOF list, bounces every time. It's probably someone who has changed e-dresses and is now subscribed to this list under a different one--but if so you are now not included in some of the technical discussion going on. Please inform Jacqueline and me privately of your new e-dress. Thanks! Jean Jean Lorrah A21711F@msumusik.mursuky.edu (If no reply in 72 hours, try Jean1@Juno.com) The E-mail of the species is more deadly than the mail. http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3439 http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4165 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 07:43:35 -0600 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Kandace Klumper Subject: MOVIES: Star Wars memories? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Kandace Klumper wrote: > > > > Okay, while we're on the topic: > > > > Does anyone remember a scene in Star Wars where 3PO and R2 are on > > the Alderaan ship under fire, a laser blast goes off and 3PO ends > > up entangled in a bunch of circuitry? Tony Z wrote back--> >>It's in _Empire Strikes Back_, when the Millenium Falcon is escaping >>from Bespin. Nope nope. I know the scene you're talking about, but that's not the one I= 'm referring to. I saw Empire Strikes Back in Omaha on first run, I got m= y grandparents to take me to see Star Wars in my little home town of Red Oa= k, Iowa, pop. 6,000 on second run of first release. In the scene I'm think= ing of C3PO wasn't blown apart, just 'knocked' into some open circuitry in = the corridor. He was looking for R2 who had gotten separated from him. Of= course, when he finally finds him Princess Leia is recording her message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 07:48:00 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Larry P Ulrey Subject: Re: Funny SF site Lisa W wrote: >Is this site graphic or text? Could you guys maybe tell that sort of >thing so I don't go and get totally lost? > >Hugs all around! >Lisa > Oh, I didn't think about that. Anyway, that site is text. Larry Ulrey ulrey@juno.com _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 10:35:06 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: John Cowan Subject: Re: Imaginary Worlds as Shameful Thing In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19980331221130.006c7828@msumusik.mursuky.edu> from "Jean Lorrah" at Mar 31, 98 04:11:30 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jean Lorrah writes: > Hannah wrote, > >With all this pressure to stop working with imaginary worlds and > >characters, I still do it, shamefully as if I were an addict who should > >stop but can't. > > I'm amazed. When I was a little kid, people thought it was cute. I started > writing and sharing stories very early--family and teachers encouraged it, > kids in school divided between a few who wanted the stories and the rest who > hated me for it (among other things like having a good family life and > getting good grades). It didn't take me long at ALL to figure out who could > be told and who could not! I am a participant in the Conlang mailing list, which specializes in constructed languages, especially those created by individuals as artforms. (Auxiliary languages like Esperanto are also discussed there on occasion, although *advocacy* for them is not allowed.) Several participants with fundamentalist Christian backgrounds have reported episodes where they have destroyed their creative works under pressure from religious leaders who characterize fantasy as "a work of the Devil". Speaking for myself an agnostic, nothing could make clearer to me who does, and who does *not*, worship God the Creator. > Just live > inside your head, and leave them in their boring mundane world. But art communicates, and so creates a pressure to be shared. Writers want to be published, painters want to be hung. :-) -- John Cowan cowan@ccil.org e'osai ko sarji la lojban. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 10:16:03 EST Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: APinzow Subject: Re: Titanic Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 98-03-31 11:36:05 EST, you write: Don writes: > > I wonder if > the older couple depected were the Strausses, a Jewish couple who remained > together. I saw one book about the events during and after mentioned that > the couple became "honorary aryans" in the media, though they were made > famous within the Jewish communities of the time. > I don't know about the movie but the Strausses (of Abraham and Strauss or A&S as it is now called) did die on the Titanic. And yes, she refused to leave her husband and they did give up their lives so that others could live. I'd like to point out that Cunard (I don't remember his first name) the man who owned/founded/ whatever the Titanic, dressed up as a woman so that he could sneak aboard a lifeboat. Readya, Anne ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 07:54:26 -0800 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Robyn King-Nitschke Subject: Re: TECH: Who is shadorat@proxy4.ba.best.com? > > Who is, or used to be, shadorat@proxy4.ba.best.com? E-mail to this address, > which is included in the SMOF list, bounces every time. It's probably > someone who has changed e-dresses and is now subscribed to this list under a > different one--but if so you are now not included in some of the technical > discussion going on. Please inform Jacqueline and me privately of your new > e-dress. Thanks! Jean > It's me! It's my other address, but it's supposed to be "shadorat@best.com". I don't know why my stupid ISP keeps sticking that "proxy4" in there, but I know that it doesn't always bounce (from everyone) when mail goes to that address. As long as I'm in on the discussions under "rking@redbrick.com" there's no need to duplicate postings to shadorat. --Robyn ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 02:34:05 +1000 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: "Jenn V." Subject: Re: Funny SF site MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lisa W wrote: > > Is this site graphic or text? Could you guys maybe tell that sort of > thing so I don't go and get totally lost? > > Hugs all around! > Lisa It's sufficiently text to be readily surfed by you, Lisa. Go, enjoy. Jenn V. -- It's amazing where you can go with a completely false premise Jenn Vesperman jenn@brisnet.org.au http://www.brisnet.org.au/~jenn ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 11:38:21 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Gwynhwyfar Moonfire Subject: Worldcon In-Reply-To: <19980326.102101.3358.0.ulrey@juno.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 07:51 AM 3/26/98 -0500, you wrote: > That's good news. BTW, just how many people from the list are >planning to be at the Worldcon? I know that Leigh and I will be there I would be there if I could afford the registration fee, but I'm currently impovrished. :p I'll be there in spirit, though. (It's even worse, since I live a four hour drive from Baltimore and have family I could stay with an hour away from there.) -Gwyn, who wishes she had money ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 13:33:59 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: John Cowan Organization: Lojban Peripheral Subject: Re: Imaginary Worlds, value of MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit MLCVamp wrote: > "On Fairy-Stories" includes a beautiful poem about the human right (a "right" > flawed but not lost in the Fall from Eden) to act as a Sub-Creator. Get it, > read it!! Here it is: 'Dear Sir', I said --- 'Although now long estranged, Man is not wholly lost nor wholly changed. Dis-graced he may be, yet is not de-throned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned: Man, Sub-creator, the refracted Light through whom is splintered from a single White to many hues, and endlessly combined in living shapes that move from mind to mind. Though all the crannies of the world we filled with Elves and Goblins, though we dared to build Gods and their houses out of dark and light and sowed the seed of dragons --- 'twas our right (used or misused). That right has not decayed: we make still by the law in which we're made. I find lines 8 and 14 (note that this is a sonnet of sorts, though the rhyme scheme is just 7 couplets) the most moving. -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn. You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn. Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (FW 16.5) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 12:27:53 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Larry P Ulrey Subject: Re: Worldcon Gwynhwyfar Moonfire wrote: >I would be there if I could afford the registration fee, but I'm currently >impovrished. :p I'll be there in spirit, though. (It's even worse, since >I live a four hour drive from Baltimore and have family I could stay with >an hour away from there.) > >-Gwyn, who wishes she had money > Well, it's too bad you can't afford the con, but you don't have to have a membership to come to the party. It'll be in the Holiday Inn Friday night, probably starting about 9pm. Maybe you could come to the party Friday and visit your family the rest of the weekend. Larry Ulrey ulrey@juno.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 12:32:49 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Larry P Ulrey Subject: Re: MOVIES: Star Wars memories? Kandace Klumper wrote: >Tony Z wrote back--> >>>It's in _Empire Strikes Back_, when the Millenium Falcon is escaping >>>from Bespin. > >Nope nope. I know the scene you're talking about, but that's not the one I'm >referring to. I saw Empire Strikes Back in Omaha on first run, I got my >grandparents to take me to see Star Wars in my little home town of >Red Oak, Iowa, pop. 6,000 on second run of first release. In the scene I'm >thinking of C3PO wasn't blown apart, just 'knocked' into some open >circuitry in >the corridor. He was looking for R2 who had gotten separated from >him. Of >course, when he finally finds him Princess Leia is recording her message. That's the way I recall it, also. Larry Ulrey ulrey@juno.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 11:40:49 -0800 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Maureen Gibbins Subject: back on track In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I'm sorry that I've been absent, but it seems that life has had a habit this past year of grabbing a hold of me just as soon as I think it has evened out. My friend's young son committed suicide and, since she and her husband and son have no other family in San Diego except her 80 year old father, I've been helping arrange the funeral and then just being there for her so that she has someone who give her a shoulder while she cries. I think it should ease up this week and the next newsletter will be out on Monday. This experience has led me to the conclusion that I will only be able to manage the newsletter once a month unless I can get some people from the list to volunteer to write some articles for it. So, if you are interested in writing for the newsletter, let me know, otherwise, I will plan on this for once a month. Take care of yourselves. Maureen "The joy in life is in its diversity and the ways in which our differences combine to create meaning and beauty." - Star Trek Maureen P. Gibbins e-mail: mgibbins@sunstroke.sdsu.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 15:33:31 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg Subject: Fwd: Re: I would buy the new book Comments: cc: Ronnie Bob -- [ From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg * EMC.Ver #3.0 ] -- Folks: We've just heard from a new Founding400 member who would buy the Farris Channel book -- and he heard of it on rec.arts -- and I recall someone on this List had said that recently they posted to a usenet group about us. I think word is getting around: Here's our newbie (who might not be on the List but wants the novel to read) . (I had written him to change my eddress from ambrovzeor@aol.com to zeor@ucs.net (NEVER post ucs.net to ANYTHING as my eddress please.) -------------------- I got the AOL address from a mention on rec.arts.sf.written recently. You may want to inform that group and/or update your web suite, if msgs to the aol address are in danger of being lost. -David E. Siegel Siegel@ACM.ORG Live Long and Prosper, Jacqueline Lichtenberg THE BIBLICAL TAROT:"Never Cross A Palm With Silver" is now in Barnes&Noble and at amazon.com. The second book in the series has been turned in. Connect to the Sime~Gen Webring and find out how to get the next Sime~Gen novel! On The Zeor Visitor's at http://www.j51.com/~zeor click on Directory. I reserve the right to repost any comment that comes to me that is NOT MARKED DNQ or in some way obviously personal. My SF Review Column is posted monthly at http://www.lightworks. com/MonthlyAspectarian Join the Sime~Gen Listserve, surf the Virtual Tecton starting at Tecton Central http://www.best.com/~shadorat/sg/sgfr.html Sign up for the free Email S~G Newsletter (a few pages, twice a month max)at http://www.tertius.net.au/simegen/signup/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 13:36:22 -0700 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: "Donald V., Sally A. or Tracy M. Thurber" Subject: Re: MOVIES: Star Wars MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A quick hello from a diehard lurker... Actually, I think the scene the original question involved is the one immediately after the escape from the Death Star in "A New Hope." Threepio is lying in a pile of sparking wires, squawking, "Help! I think I'm melting! This is all your fault!" Artoo is nearby, still extinguishing a small fire, and beeps some back talk at him. TMT P.S. My spell checker just suggested "therapy" for "Threepio." Sounds reasonable... ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 21:52:13 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Lisa W Subject: Re: Funny SF site In-Reply-To: <19980401.095007.3358.2.ulrey@juno.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Thanks!! I really do appreiate your helping me out like that! Hugs! Lisa the not web lost. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 06:08:42 -0600 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jean Lorrah Subject: OMNI dies Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I received this yesterday from a reliable source: >This is NOT an April Fool's joke: > > >I checked with Editor Ellen Datlow and she confirmed that OMNI has >"suspended publication indefinitely as of March 31st." > >For those of you with Web capability, Craig (last name?) >(craig@scifi.com) of Sci-Fi Wire reports, "I just heard back from >General Media and they said Omni is not dead and will in fact be >returning to print form, although only in 'special issues' and not >as a monthly magazine. I just posted all I know on Sci-Fi >Wire (wire.scifi.com)." Here we go again. They went to the WWW to cut expenses, and it still didn't work. What IS the method of selling fiction that will work on the WWW? Jean Jean Lorrah A21711F@msumusik.mursuky.edu (If no reply in 72 hours, try Jean1@Juno.com) The E-mail of the species is more deadly than the mail. http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3439 http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4165 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 09:14:33 EST Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: APinzow Subject: Kramersbooks & Afterwoods file court papers to quash subpeona from Independent Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Though I have much, much better things to do than to spend one iota of time, thought or brain cells on the law suits brought against the President (my sisters' father-in-law shook hands with Clinton about seven years ago. Gee, you think I should tell Ken Starr, or maybe I could publish a book, better yet, produce a movie or miniseries), this following issue does merit some thought. Simply because this does involve our right to think. Actually George Orwell did invision a world where our thoughts were under constant scrutiny; though he saw government as the culprit. Right now, all most every one of my very favorite books is banned by some organization or other. Now, our right to question, to inform ourselves, to explore is being threatened. This whole thing is turning into something far worse than McCarthyism. --------------------------------------------------------------------- >BookFlash> >>BookFlash>> >>>BookFlash>>> >>>>BookFlash>>>> Breaking News brought to you by the American Booksellers Association http://www.bookweb.org/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- The owners of independent bookstore Kramerbooks & Afterwords today filed court papers in the U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia to quash a subpoena from Independent Counsel Kenneth Starr that was seeking information about purchases by former White House intern Monica Lewinsky. “The independent counsel’s subpoena raises extremely serious questions about the privacy and First Amendment rights of our customers,” said Kramerbooks & Afterwords co-owner William J. Kramer. He noted that “our company policy is plain. We will not turn over any information about our customers’ purchases and have not done so in this instance.” The subpoena would have forced Kramerbooks to turn over all information regarding Lewinsky’s purchases by 9:15 A.M. Thursday. ABA and the American Booksellers Foundation for Free Expression (ABFFE) today expressed strong support for Kramerbooks. “Mr. Starr’s subpoena is poisoning the atmosphere in bookstores throughout the country,” said ABA CEO Avin Mark Domnitz, who added, “if the First Amendment means anything, it means we have the right to purchase books without fear that government will inquire into our reading habits.” ABFFE President Christopher Finan said that ABFFE will file an amicus brief in support of Kramerbooks tomorrow morning. The foundation has also said that it will help raise moneys to pay legal bills in what it expects will be an expensive fight. Kramer said that he has already received a number of calls from booksellers nationwide in support, and Finan noted that many national trade associations and professional organizations have announced support for Kramerbooks’ decision. Noting that he and his partners deeply appreciated the many offers of support they are receiving from booksellers all over the country, Kramer said, “we are very grateful to ABA, ABFFE, and our fellow booksellers.” ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 09:58:59 EST Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: MLCVamp Subject: Re: Imaginary Worlds (JRRT sonnet) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit John, thanks for posting it! That poem always makes me cry. Aside from the climactic line 14, my own favorite is line 3. Margaret ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 08:01:27 -0800 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Robyn King-Nitschke Subject: Re: Imaginary Worlds (JRRT sonnet) > From owner-simegen-l@SIU.EDU Thu Apr 2 07:11 PST 1998 > Mime-Version: 1.0 > Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit > Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 09:58:59 EST > From: MLCVamp > Subject: Re: Imaginary Worlds (JRRT sonnet) > To: SIMEGEN-L@SIU.EDU > > John, thanks for posting it! That poem always makes me cry. Aside from the > climactic line 14, my own favorite is line 3. > > Margaret > Did I miss something? I didn't get this poem...was it posted to the list? Thanks, --Robyn ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 13:14:09 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Gwynhwyfar Moonfire Subject: Re: Worldcon In-Reply-To: <19980401.134107.3358.0.ulrey@juno.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 12:27 PM 4/1/98 -0500, you wrote: > Well, it's too bad you can't afford the con, but you don't have to >have a membership to come to the party. It'll be in the Holiday Inn >Friday night, probably starting about 9pm. Maybe you could come to the >party Friday and visit your family the rest of the weekend. Hmm. That's not a bad idea. If someone wanted to give me *good* directions and all that? (Keeping in mind that I can get lost -easily-, just by closing my eyes and wishing hard.) :) Who's going to be at the party? *nosylook* (And would I be able to beg a section of floor from someone to crash on, assuming that the issue of sleep actually came up....) -Gwyn (who would like to do something to counter her first Con experience, which was bad enough to make her leery of every going to a Con again...) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 09:00:34 -1000 Reply-To: Torun@gte.net Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: David and/or Torun Almer Organization: Starfire Retreat Bed and Breakfast, Kailua-Kona, HI Subject: Clarassa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A new house has been added to the Householding Register. Check out Clarissa at http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Rampart/6002/register.html. Torun Sime~Gen Universe Householding Registrar See Starfire at http://home1.gte.net/torun/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 15:28:09 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg Subject: Re: OMNI dies -- [ From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg * EMC.Ver #3.0 ] -- Jean wrote: > > Here we go again. They went to the WWW to cut expenses, and it still didn't > work. What IS the method of selling fiction that will work on the WWW? Jean > JL here -- I just read that McGraw Hill has launched dozens of websites for their various publishing enterprises during the last year or two, and has full scale plans to convert them all to SUBSCRIPTION fee websites within a couple of years. Yahoo and Geocities are in a deal of some sort -- and they both run on advertising. AOL runs on fees plus advertising. (some other ISPs have raised rates following AOL's rate raise). AOL and Yahoo are starting to make profits. Subscriber-based websites have not yet turned a profit. amazon.com is starting to make a profit. These are the two models so far and so far only advertising turns a profit. Now comes the question of the FORM in which the fiction is delivered. On paper, on cd-rom, or as download. I heard this morning on CNBC that the head of a corporation that specializes in streamlining and making sense of the multi-platform mess corporations have gotten themselves into firmly expects (and is investing big bucks on the basis if that expectation) that in about 2 years the BANDWIDTH problem will be completely solved, and we will have (at first on corporate intranets and very quickly on the internet itself) enough bandwidth to get rid of most of the delays and to deliver real-time videophone communication. I would have said 7 years or so for that to happen. So maybe it's more like 5. When the problem of getting kicked off your connection (or signing on at over 50,000 and then getting put on hold!) in the midst of a download goes away, downloading may be the delivery medium. But that won't work for text displays until people have a device that they can curl up with and read like a paperback book. I suspect the first fiction delivery models that can turn a profit will have to deliver a physical object by UPS or mail. What physical object? I had to go to the mall today, and of course, cruised Walden's. Book prices deterred me completely from taking a chance on something I probably wouldn't like. Over $5 for a skinny book with large letters that wouldn't last an evening. We need to re-invent the dime-novel -- the read-and-toss fiction. I have the Encyclopaedia Britannica on CD Rom -- that entire, huge, gigantic over $1000 set of volumes on two cd's for $150. And it has MORE stuff on the CD's than they printed on the paper version, PLUS this is the multi- media version which is why it's on two CD's so it has video clips and all kinds of stuff, plus a huge dictionary. Just $150. All the rest of the PRICE of that rack of volumes that only a library could ever afford is paper and binding! So you should be able to buy a whole large novel for a dollar or so and the author still gets paid and the website infrastructure fee plus a profit is all figured in. The missing link in this is the READER. Notebook computers are nice, but still too large and too expensive, and only the really expensive screens are actually readable. So keep your eyes peeled for a reading-device, news, announcements, research etc. I saw something about Apple being ready to launch some new products. Their Newton failed in the marketplace for a lot of reasons. If they make us a reading device, it could change the world. Live Long and Prosper, Jacqueline Lichtenberg THE BIBLICAL TAROT:"Never Cross A Palm With Silver" is now in Barnes&Noble and at amazon.com. The second book in the series has been turned in. Connect to the Sime~Gen Webring and find out how to get the next Sime~Gen novel! On The Zeor Visitor's at http://www.j51.com/~zeor click on Directory. I reserve the right to repost any comment that comes to me that is NOT MARKED DNQ or in some way obviously personal. My SF Review Column is posted monthly at http://www.lightworks. com/MonthlyAspectarian Join the Sime~Gen Listserve, surf the Virtual Tecton starting at Tecton Central http://www.best.com/~shadorat/sg/sgfr.html Sign up for the free Email S~G Newsletter (a few pages, twice a month max)at http://www.tertius.net.au/simegen/signup/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 15:28:22 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg Subject: Re: MOVIES: Star Wars -- [ From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg * EMC.Ver #3.0 ] -- I love this thread! Notice how different our memories are -- and how we aren't hundred percent certain about what we saw? I think this is because this movie is one of those that comes off the screen into our dreams -- and we rewrite it and re-live it many times in imagination after the fact. So it's hard, years and years later, to remember which was the original version and which one we rewrote. I did that to Katherine Kurtz's Deryni books -- invented a wonderful scene that was so real I was certain I had read it. I had to reread 9 novels carefully to convince myself the scene was in the books even after Katherine denied ever writing that scene (when we were on a panel, I asked her). It of course gets much worse when the original source is rewritten (re- edited) right before our eyes. In Star Trek fandom, we have this problem too. Many wonderful and real scenes from ST:TOS actually were never broadcast -- they exist only in fanzines or pro novels! (and some of those were written by Jean Lorrah!) JL Live Long and Prosper, Jacqueline Lichtenberg THE BIBLICAL TAROT:"Never Cross A Palm With Silver" is now in Barnes&Noble and at amazon.com. The second book in the series has been turned in. Connect to the Sime~Gen Webring and find out how to get the next Sime~Gen novel! On The Zeor Visitor's at http://www.j51.com/~zeor click on Directory. I reserve the right to repost any comment that comes to me that is NOT MARKED DNQ or in some way obviously personal. My SF Review Column is posted monthly at http://www.lightworks. com/MonthlyAspectarian Join the Sime~Gen Listserve, surf the Virtual Tecton starting at Tecton Central http://www.best.com/~shadorat/sg/sgfr.html Sign up for the free Email S~G Newsletter (a few pages, twice a month max)at http://www.tertius.net.au/simegen/signup/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 15:28:31 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg Subject: WORK: fantasy discussion -- [ From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg * EMC.Ver #3.0 ] -- David Robinson wrote: > > In one of the messages pertaining to the fantasy-escapist personality, someone > described a fiction writer as one who lives in a fantasy world as an observer. > I disagree. Almost everything that I write, I first live. Usually in my head > but not always. It's a bit frightening how realistic one can be if the > experience is direct. Of course, that can draw one funny looks from one's > friends and loved ones; as well as a comfortable room with padded walls if one > ventures too far into something considered odd. > Please don't remind me that many of the situations have no exact > duplicate. (Where to find a Sime?) Surely someone in your life has told you to > 'put yourself in someone else'd shoes'. That is, after all, the best exercise > for imagination I have yet found. > I agree completely with David on this one as far as I, myself am concerned. To write a story, I must live INSIDE it. However that isn't true of all writers, or all genres -- even of the fantasy genres. One very very popular form of literature relies totally on the Omniscient Narrator point of view -- above the scene, outside the characters, like a tv camera or a G-d's Eye View. I heartily dislike this form myself for precisely the reason that David cites -- "living in a fantasy world as an observer" is just meaningless to me. I'm a practitioner, not an academic. You can, if you know how to imbibe fiction, live within a fantasy universe in such a vital and participatory way that you, yourself, actually grow and change as a result of having written or read the story. The more "fantasy" (the more unreal) the situation and setting the more efficient the fantasy world is at promoting healthy personal growth in the participants. Why? Because in order to get a good, sane, factual grip on our "real" world , it is necessary to understand it's elements, to factor all the parts away from the others and to examine each part separately, then together with other parts, and re-assemble our "reality" from well-understood parts. For example, in the Sime~Gen world, the premise is that "fear is dangerous to your health" -- In our "real" world fear (sane, rational fear) is one of the most important survival mechanisms any animal can have. Humans who literally are incapable of fear (I forget the technical name for that psychological syndrom) are completely dysfunctional as people. The sociopath is one more complicated example of that. There's another name for those who can't experience fear. At any rate -- a lot of what has gone wrong with our civilization (my premise states) is rooted in a pathology of the fear-mechanism. And in addition to all that, we have the problem of taking the basic human animal into a 'civilization' setting. Because of civilization, and because it's become global, we have put stresses on ourselves that we are not physically equiped to deal with. For example, xenophobia is a survival trait for isolated tribes living far from others. For people living in a world where Tokyo and Moskow are only a few hours travel (and a moment of phone-dialing) away from New York, xenophobia is suddenly a crippling and deadly trait. So to create this fantasy universe, you take this perfectly healthy trait that's turned deadly, extract it from it's complex surroundings (in which you can't discuss it because of the embedded political ramifications) and turn the trait around, twist it into something else, then create an entire fantasy world to wrap around the twisted-trait. Now in this new, foreign, "distanced" context, it is possible to discuss the pros and cons, the morality and ethic of fear in general and xenophobia in particular. Because this fantasy world is FAR removed from reality, it's valuable. Because it's built on reality, and is formed exactly like reality (with one little difference) it's valuable. But it's of no value unless you can get "into" it -- live inside it and particpate in it. Live Long and Prosper, Jacqueline Lichtenberg THE BIBLICAL TAROT:"Never Cross A Palm With Silver" is now in Barnes&Noble and at amazon.com. The second book in the series has been turned in. Connect to the Sime~Gen Webring and find out how to get the next Sime~Gen novel! On The Zeor Visitor's at http://www.j51.com/~zeor click on Directory. I reserve the right to repost any comment that comes to me that is NOT MARKED DNQ or in some way obviously personal. My SF Review Column is posted monthly at http://www.lightworks. com/MonthlyAspectarian Join the Sime~Gen Listserve, surf the Virtual Tecton starting at Tecton Central http://www.best.com/~shadorat/sg/sgfr.html Sign up for the free Email S~G Newsletter (a few pages, twice a month max)at http://www.tertius.net.au/simegen/signup/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 12:53:41 -0800 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Robyn King-Nitschke Subject: Re: OMNI dies JL writes: > > The missing link in this is the READER. Notebook computers are nice, but > still too large and too expensive, and only the really expensive screens are > actually readable. > > So keep your eyes peeled for a reading-device, news, announcements, research > etc. > > I saw something about Apple being ready to launch some new products. Their > Newton failed in the marketplace for a lot of reasons. If they make us a > reading device, it could change the world. > > I expect it'll be something like a more sophisticated version of the PalmPilot. It's a little larger than a deck of cards (5" by 4" or so) and most of it is screen. You communicate with it by writing on the screen with a little stylus (kind of like the Newton, but this one actually caught on and is selling well). Once they get it to the point where it's in color and affordable (you can already send and receive email on it, and make it interface with your desktop PC) I think the reader problem might be solved. Still a bit expensive, though--around $250. --Robyn ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 17:04:15 -0600 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jean Lorrah Subject: Re: OMNI dies Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 03:28 PM 4/2/98 -0500, Jacqueline wrote: >-- [ From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg * EMC.Ver #3.0 ] -- >I suspect the first fiction delivery models that can turn a profit will have >to deliver a physical object by UPS or mail. That is what amazon.com does--but I suspect it sells far more nonfiction than fiction, and could not make a profit selling fiction alone. >We need to re-invent the dime-novel -- the read-and-toss fiction. That's already done. We've got dozens of them on the S~G websites; Project Gutenberg has hundreds of them. It's not even a dime--it's free. >I have the Encyclopaedia Britannica on CD Rom -- that entire, huge, gigantic >over $1000 set of volumes on two cd's for $150. And it has MORE stuff on >the CD's than they printed on the paper version, PLUS this is the multi- >media version which is why it's on two CD's so it has video clips and all >kinds of stuff, plus a huge dictionary. Just $150. All the rest of the >PRICE of that rack of volumes that only a library could ever afford is paper >and binding! An encyclopedia is something you use maybe half a dozen times per year--that's why it has to be cheap if people are going to buy the home version. It also means that users will willingly sit at the screen and hunt for what they need--whatever the research tool, users will sit at a desktop to use it. It's leisure reading they don't want to do in that position. >So you should be able to buy a whole large novel for a dollar or so and the >author still gets paid and the website infrastructure fee plus a profit is >all figured in. Yeah--but the author gets fifty cents--wow, 50% royalties!!!! Unfortunately, three or four dollars per month is not enough to live on, and that is probably the BEST most of us midlist authors can expect to make. >The missing link in this is the READER. Notebook computers are nice, but >still too large and too expensive, and only the really expensive screens are >actually readable. All notebooks now come with beautifully readable screens, and have for the past couple of years. Jacqueline, you and I each bought a new notebook nearly two years ago. Both have large, clear, easy-to-read screens. Mine also weighs only four pounds--one of my main criteria when I bought it. That has meant _a whole lot_ to me as I have carted it through airport after airport in the past two years. The only problem is that the lightweight plastic case is falling apart--the guts work great, but pieces keep falling off the case! Fact: the business traveler doesn't want to carry a notebook computer _and_ an electronic reader. But the business traveler cannot leave at home e-mail, spreadsheet, word processor, whatever, in favor of a device that does nothing that a paperback novel in the back pocket can't do. >So keep your eyes peeled for a reading-device, news, announcements, research >etc. >I saw something about Apple being ready to launch some new products. Their >Newton failed in the marketplace for a lot of reasons. If they make us a >reading device, it could change the world. The people who have the $$$ to buy electronic devices want something that does everything. That's the PC. You can put your own favorite programs on it, get your e-mail _and answer it_ (a problem with some of the small devices on the market is that they let you read your e-mail, but not answer it--what good is that?), _and_ download some fiction or a game or two before you hit the road, so you'll have something for the evening in the hotel room. You can also go out on the Internet from anywhere if you are with one of the major services (I would be with MCI if I didn't have free Internet through the university). Everybody keeps coming up with the idea for that standalone reading device. Unfortunately, the only people who would be satisfied with _only that_ can't afford one and wouldn't want one if they could! The breakthrough is going to come with new technology--there is already a wearable computer prototype (the screen is a pair of glasses) that will end the weight vs. screen size problem (the "screen" will fill your entire range of vision). As we straight-text readers die off, too, the new generation will expect and get interaction. A whole new world is coming--and we have already claimed a piece of it. Right now we're just hanging on to it (and paying taxes), waiting for the neighborhood to start growing. The palmtop computers are not selling well because everyone who would like one is waiting for color, Internet access, the ability to send as well as receive e-mail, and the ability to put one's own favorite programs on it. But until voice-operated input is really good and reliable, a major need is a decent keyboard--so look for the thinner and thinner notebook (there's now a 2 1/2 pound one, only 3/4" thick) to win out instead. Battery life is now in the 6-8 hour range--airplane reading becomes more and more possible. Why would you carry only a dedicated reader when your notebook can function as a reader _and_ everything else? The computerphobes aren't going to buy dedicated readers--they will continue to take books out of the library. I've been watching people spontaneously come up with the notion of the dedicated reader as the solution to all our problems for about five years now--but no one can get funding to make one, because all surveys show that the only people willing to read text from a computer screen also demand that that screen do other things. People who don't want e-mail, Internet access, or various programs also don't want a reader--they want a book. Jean Jean Lorrah A21711F@msumusik.mursuky.edu (If no reply in 72 hours, try Jean1@Juno.com) The E-mail of the species is more deadly than the mail. http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3439 http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4165 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 14:06:27 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Larry P Ulrey Subject: Re: Worldcon Gwynhwyfar Moonfire wrote: >Hmm. That's not a bad idea. If someone wanted to give me *good* >directions and all that? (Keeping in mind that I can get lost easily-, >just by closing my eyes and wishing hard.) :) Who's going to be at the >party? *nosylook* (And would I be able to beg a section of floor from >someone to crash on, assuming that the issue of sleep actually came up....) > >-Gwyn (who would like to do something to counter her first Con experience, >which was bad enough to make her leery of every going to a Con again...) Well, I'll try to get you directions just as soon as I can figure out exactly how to get there myself. So far they haven't included directions for people driving in from out of town in any of their progress reports. So I'm trying to figure it out from maps. I get lost easily also. The Holiday Inn is 1 1/2 blocks north and 1 block west of the Convention Center. There should be signs on the interstate when you get close to the Convention Center directing you there. What direction are you coming from? You also may be able to figure out how to get there by using the trip planning page on the www.mapquest.com site. Get back with me later and I'll try to help you figure this out. As for who will be at the party, well Jacqueline, Jean, and Anne will be there. Leigh and I will be there. Nova's planning on coming. Donna Burns (and bring a friend) may make it if her car holds up. Torun Almer and her husband _may_ make it if finances and scheduling permit. Kaas was considering it, but I haven't heard for sure one way or the other. I'll be seeing her at Minicon Easter weekend, so I'll try to find out more then. As for who else, I don't know yet. Crash space shouldn't be a problem. Right now, there are three people sharing the room. If Kaas does decide to come that would make four, so as long as you don't mind sleeping on the floor, there'll be room. I had hoped to get more people to cut the cost, but not that many people I know are going to be going there. Let me know if you're planning to though, in case anyone else asks to share. If we end up with more than six people, it could get a little crowded. Oh, BTW, Jacqueline said there will be a movie producer at the con and suggested that, to increase visibility, people wear their Sime-Gen t-shirts that Kaas makes if they have them. Well, take care. Larry Ulrey ulrey@juno,com _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 17:27:06 -0600 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jean Lorrah Subject: TECH: moneymaking scheme Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Okay--here's another one: http://www.virtualisys.com/vr/jdaniels/vrp.html It's a pyramid scheme, of course, but is it a legal one? Jean Jean Lorrah A21711F@msumusik.mursuky.edu (If no reply in 72 hours, try Jean1@Juno.com) The E-mail of the species is more deadly than the mail. http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3439 http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4165 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 19:43:14 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Cynthia Tenen Subject: Re: MOVIES: "A New Hope" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" J-Man wrote: >Well, if you are saying that "A new Hope" was never in the MOVIE title, >you are correct. However, it was in that scrolling text that comes up >at the beginning of the movie. ...Trust me, not the first time around, it wasn't. Not in 1976. I can't tell you how many times I saw that thing... it moved me to tears just to see "the force" *mentioned* in a big, media movie. Then, it was a major psychological and spiritual miracle. Now, it's old hat. -ct ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 23:14:05 -0600 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jean Lorrah Subject: Market; editors wanted Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From the Market Maven of SPECULATIONS: > HELP WANTED > >Writer On Line is a paying market. We are looking for >timely, professionally written articles that offer keen insight and >solid advice. Articles, transcribed interviews, or reviews must >address the areas of fiction writing (novel, story, screen, stage play, >TV), technical writing, the art of the essay, etc. We have >special interest in previously published authors with established >reputations in their fields. We prefer hard copy queries but will >also accept email sent to wol@novalearn.com. mailto:wol@novalearn.com > >Send query letters/proposals to Writer On Line, 190 Mt. >Vernon Ave., >Rochester, NY 14620. > >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > >Writer On Line is now recruiting Associate Editors. These >are not salaried positions but do offer financial considerations. >For details, send an email with the content "editors" to >editors@novalearn.com. Information will be sent by autoresponder. >mailto:editors@novalearn.com Jean Lorrah A21711F@msumusik.mursuky.edu (If no reply in 72 hours, try Jean1@Juno.com) The E-mail of the species is more deadly than the mail. http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3439 http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4165 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 03:53:59 -0800 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: J-Man Subject: Re: MOVIES: "A New Hope" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > ..Trust me, not the first time around, it wasn't. Not in 1976. I can't > tell you how many times I saw that thing... it moved me to tears just to > see "the force" *mentioned* in a big, media movie. Then, it was a major > psychological and spiritual miracle. Now, it's old hat. > > -ct I'm not sure when *I* saw it first, but that may have been in 1978. Don't think it was '79, because that's when "Star Trek: The Motion Picture" came out. This may be why I saw that "A New Hope" while others didn't. Str Wars was old news when I saw it, but the lines were still horrific. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 10:12:21 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: John Cowan Organization: Lojban Peripheral Subject: Re: TECH: moneymaking scheme MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jean Lorrah wrote: > It's a pyramid scheme, of course, but is it a legal one? Jean At a first look it is legal MLM, like Amway: sleazy but legal. A tangible product (Web server space) is being sold, after all. Disclaimer: Not a lawyer, though begot by one. -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn. You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn. Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (FW 16.5) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 10:25:11 EST Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: MLCVamp Subject: WORK: fantasy discussion ('observer") Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In trying to summarize briefly C. S. Lewis' discussion of the creation of fantasy worlds, I probably didn't give a completely accurate impression. The creator who is an "observer" isn't "detached" in the sense of coolly intellectuallizing; he or she is usually deeply emotionally involved in the created world. CSL means the creator is an "observer" in the sense of not being a character in the action (just as an author is usually not a character in his or her own novels -- though sometimes the author may be, like Chaucer or Dante in their respective best-known epics). This is how CSL created his own worlds, so this is the model he discusses. I can well believe that some creators may "live" as characters within their secondary realities (though I don't do it myself). This is separate, of course, from the well-known principle that every lifelike character we create expresses some aspect of ourselves. I'm reminded of Charles DeLint's YARROW, about a female fantasy writer who gets her plots from a secondary world she visits -- as a participant, not just an observer -- which she thinks is a vivid series of dreams. In fact, she's in contact with a real alternate universe. The villain in this one is an immortal psychic vampire who feeds on dreams, which is (surprise!) the particular attraction of the book for me. LL&P, Margaret ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 11:23:04 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg Subject: Re: WORK: fantasy discussion ('observer") Comments: To: Margaret Carter -- [ From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg * EMC.Ver #3.0 ] -- Margaret Carter wrote: > This is how CSL created his own worlds, so this is the model he discusses. I > can well believe that some creators may "live" as characters within their > secondary realities (though I don't do it myself). JL here -- that may well be why I find CSL unreadable (other than his academic background). MZB taught me something I already knew but didn't have the knack of actually doing -- "get down on the floor and WRITHE with your characters" -- meaning suffer their plight as if it were your own. Her measure of whether she'd done a good job writing a novel was whether she cried all during the first drafting of the final 5 or 10 pages. (or laughed or whatever -- reacted EMOTIONALLY as if it were happening to herself.) This to me is the benchmark of excellence in fiction. And the only way I know of to achieve that is to BE not just one of the characters (that's the "Mary Sue") -- but ALL the characters in turn. That's how I wrote HoZ (before I met MZB). One night I'd go to sleep being Klyd, wake up and work out the part where he reacted, decided, assessed and spoke out. That night I'd go to sleep being Hugh, and wake up and rewrite the section from Hugh's POV. Even in a single pov novel or story, the author must BE all the other characters. That's what I learned from Gene Roddenberry and Trek. Kirk, Spock, and McCoy are (Gene always said) three parts of himself. That is for me another benchmark of excellence in fiction - when all the characters in a story taken together add up to one whole, complete personality you have a situation which reflects the reality in which I live, and that's what Art is supposed to do -- reflect Reality in a way that reveals some hidden underlying and important Truth that might otherwise go unnoticed. You can't achieve that as an artist by not-being all the characters as you create and write them. However, this attitude of mine is a matter of TASTE and it stems from my personal view of the universe. I see the Universe as one whole thing, completely unified. And so when I look at a work of Art I search for echos and suggestions of that underlying unity. If I find it, I enjoy, admire and laud that piece of Art. If I don't, I pass by that piece of Art unmoved. Those who see the Universe as composed of disconnected pieces that behave independently of one another couldn't possibly abide the Art that I find personally rewarding. Most people fall somewhere in between -- and just where depends on their mood of the day. Live Long and Prosper, Jacqueline Lichtenberg THE BIBLICAL TAROT:"Never Cross A Palm With Silver" is now in Barnes&Noble and at amazon.com. The second book in the series has been turned in. Connect to the Sime~Gen Webring and find out how to get the next Sime~Gen novel! On The Zeor Visitor's at http://www.j51.com/~zeor click on Directory. I reserve the right to repost any comment that comes to me that is NOT MARKED DNQ or in some way obviously personal. My SF Review Column is posted monthly at http://www.lightworks. com/MonthlyAspectarian Join the Sime~Gen Listserve, surf the Virtual Tecton starting at Tecton Central http://www.best.com/~shadorat/sg/sgfr.html Sign up for the free Email S~G Newsletter (a few pages, twice a month max)at http://www.tertius.net.au/simegen/signup/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 11:52:14 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Cynthia Tenen Subject: Sime~Gen Books Available Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I just bought from my local used bookstore, paperback copies of: Unto Zeor Forever 1977 Playboy edition (was there any other?) House of Zeor 1985 Berkeley edition First Channel 1986 Berkeley edition Mahogany Trinrose 1982 Playboy edition Zelerod's Doom 1986 DAW edition Rensime 1984 DAW edition All of them are in pretty good shape (no pages loose, covers intact). (I should probably keep the House of Zeor, it's in better shape than my original edition, but what the heck. ) I bought these books for a song (less than $2 each) and will send them to whoever wants 'em at that price, plus postage. So, whoever wants 'em, send me email. -ct ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 15:50:54 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg Subject: Re: Sime~Gen Books Available -- [ From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg * EMC.Ver #3.0 ] -- Cynthia posted: > I just bought from my local used bookstore, paperback copies of: > > Unto Zeor Forever 1977 Playboy edition (was there any other?) > House of Zeor 1985 Berkeley edition > First Channel 1986 Berkeley edition > Mahogany Trinrose 1982 Playboy edition > Zelerod's Doom 1986 DAW edition > Rensime 1984 DAW edition > Wow, someone let go of a collection. Yes, UNTO had a Berkley edition. I want to thank Cynthia and the other scavangers who've made these "finds" available to the List. This is Donation Ancient Style. JL Live Long and Prosper, Jacqueline Lichtenberg THE BIBLICAL TAROT:"Never Cross A Palm With Silver" is now in Barnes&Noble and at amazon.com. The second book in the series has been turned in. Connect to the Sime~Gen Webring and find out how to get the next Sime~Gen novel! On The Zeor Visitor's at http://www.j51.com/~zeor click on Directory. I reserve the right to repost any comment that comes to me that is NOT MARKED DNQ or in some way obviously personal. My SF Review Column is posted monthly at http://www.lightworks. com/MonthlyAspectarian Join the Sime~Gen Listserve, surf the Virtual Tecton starting at Tecton Central http://www.best.com/~shadorat/sg/sgfr.html Sign up for the free Email S~G Newsletter (a few pages, twice a month max)at http://www.tertius.net.au/simegen/signup/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 15:41:15 -0600 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Gregory Jao Subject: Re: Books Available Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Folks, I saw the following books at a local used bookstore. If you'd like them, email me privately and I'll purchase them and ship them to you if you'll reimburse the costs. BY JL Dushau City of a Million Legends BY JEAN Entire Savage Empire Series, including those written by other authors. Let me know. Greg Jao ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 16:11:06 -0600 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jean Lorrah Subject: Re: Books Available Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Anyone on the list--if you see Savage Empire Books in good condition--buy them! If no one on the list wants them at that moment, I will take them, because someone will soon come along who wants them. But sell them directly to a reader who wants them if you can, because if they go through me they get double postage added to the price. Jean At 03:41 PM 4/3/98 -0600, Greg wrote: >Folks, > >I saw the following books at a local used bookstore. If you'd like them, >email me privately and I'll purchase them and ship them to you if you'll >reimburse the costs. > >BY JL >Dushau >City of a Million Legends > >BY JEAN >Entire Savage Empire Series, including those written by other authors. > >Let me know. > >Greg Jao > Jean Lorrah A21711F@msumusik.mursuky.edu (If no reply in 72 hours, try Jean1@Juno.com) The E-mail of the species is more deadly than the mail. http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3439 http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4165 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Apr 1998 10:15:40 +1000 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: "Jenn V." Subject: Re: Sime~Gen Books Available MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cynthia Tenen wrote: > > I just bought from my local used bookstore, paperback copies of: Speaking of which, a couple of days ago I hit Marriots' (best used bookstore in Brisbane ... at least, that I've so far found) and picked up a copy of Mahogany Trinrose. I now have lendable (NOT resellable!) copies of: Mahogany Trinrose (2) First Channel House of Zeor (Rare. be careful with it) The lendee pays postage both ways, alas, and first preference given to Aussies & others not in the North American continent. (At the rate US folk find secondhand copies, you'd rather buy them, hmm?) I also have a second copy of Unto Zeor that my husband and I own. Somewhere. But we have no idea where.. probably at my father in law's place, knowing Les. :) Jenn V. (PS: Brisbane folk who haven't found Marriots' already: Cararra St, Mt Gravatt. Maybe our next fan club meeting should meet there.. or maybe not, we'd all go broke) -- It's amazing where you can go with a completely false premise Jenn Vesperman jenn@brisnet.org.au http://www.brisnet.org.au/~jenn ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Apr 1998 10:30:09 +1000 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Zoe Subject: Re: WORK: fantasy discussion MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I’m not sure if this pertains to WORK, if not I’m sorry. Jacqueline wrote. (Severely snipped.) >You can, if you know how to imbibe fiction, live within a fantasy universe >in such a vital and participatory way that you, yourself, actually grow and >change as a result of having written or read the story. The more "fantasy" >(the more unreal) the situation and setting the more efficient the fantasy >world is at promoting healthy personal growth in the participants. >So to create this fantasy universe, you take this perfectly healthy trait >that's turned deadly, extract it from it's complex surroundings (in which >you can't discuss it because of the embedded political ramifications) and >turn the trait around, twist it into something else, then create an entire >fantasy world to wrap around the twisted-trait. This reminds me of something I experienced recently. An incident occurred to me the during the week that gave me an idea of what it must be like for a Sime to over ride his/her instincts when provoked by a Gen while in hard need. I have some severe Post Traumatic Stress symptoms, which include instant and intense survival instincts. This person that I see sometimes (not a friend.) had had arrived "here" and unfortunately he was very drunk. I was in another room and was unaware. He was talking and acting in an aggressive manner but wasn’t actually swearing at anyone. Everyone there was ignoring him. I came out of the other room and he glared at me and started demanding that I tell him where something was. Because I was totally unprepared I was triggered and instantly reacted. I told him not to speak to anyone the way he was, then tried to avoid him. He followed me and kept laughing and yelling that he had "freaked me out" At one stage he glared at me with such menace that he looked like Jack Nicholson’s character in "The Shinning". Again I moved to another room while someone was trying to get him away. He ended up coming out and continued his gleeful intimidation. I stood and just stared at him and asked him to go away, then stood and said nothing. He kept trying to goad but I said nothing, so he started poking his hand just a fraction from my eyes. I held still because by this time all I wanted to do was escape. Then he poked his hand in a sexually intimidating manner. This triggered my survival instinct and I was about to defend myself.(which would have resulted in him having a broken arm at least) I froze in mid motion and fought my instincts and that gave someone else time to drag him away. For about two minutes I couldn’t move, I just stood with my eyes closed fighting for control. When I finally let my body go I turned and hit the wall(this I don’t remember. probably as a release.). The only thing that stopped me was that somewhere inside I saw the situation as this person being a Gen and I was fighting not to "kill" him. With the others watching on I felt like I was living a scene of a disjunction crisis. After my adrenalin came back to near normal levels I felt physically off for the next two days. (There was more to the encounter but I’ve said enough.) I know this probably sounds strange that something from S~G can help me to control something happening in the Real world but it did, and has done so before but not to this extent. I guess it’s like a reverse of what Jacqueline said about taking something from the real world and using it in fantasy. Stay Safe, Stay Strong. Zoe. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Apr 1998 10:46:24 +1000 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Zoe Subject: Re: Sime~Gen Books Available MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cynthia Tenen wrote: > I just bought from my local used bookstore, paperback copies of: > > Unto Zeor Forever 1977 Playboy edition (was there any other?) > House of Zeor 1985 Berkeley edition > First Channel 1986 Berkeley edition > Mahogany Trinrose 1982 Playboy edition > Zelerod's Doom 1986 DAW edition > Rensime 1984 DAW edition > If no one has beaten me to them i would love Zelerod's Doom and RenSime. I have two friends who are reading my double ups but i want part with the ones i have only one of, did that once and took ten years to replace. Stay Safe, Stay Strong, Zoe. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 19:41:50 EST Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: MLCVamp Subject: Re: WORK: fantasy discussion ('observer") Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 98-04-03 11:26:08 EST, Jacqueline writes: << JL here -- that may well be why I find CSL unreadable (other than his academic background). MZB taught me something I already knew but didn't have the knack of actually doing -- "get down on the floor and WRITHE with your characters" -- meaning suffer their plight as if it were your own. >> Acknowledging everything that Jacqueline says as true and valuable, let me repeat that this isn't the point I was addressing in citing the distinction CSL makes. (And I think, despite his usually employing the omniscient POV, there is no sign that he's emotionally detached from his characters. He's one of my "idols," and every novel of his makes me cry somewhere -- in several places, usually. Heck, even his apologetic writings have passages that make me choke up! One time, years ago, I gave a talk to our church's adult education forum on Lewis' work, and I read a passage from his essay "The Weight of Glory." Somehow it reminded me of my recently deceased mother-in- law, for whom I hadn't really cried yet, and I broke down into hysterical sobs in front of the group. Very embarrassing though cathartic.) True, every important character in a story expresses some aspect of the author, and to write them convincingly, the creator has to get "inside" them. The distinction I referred to is a technical, narratological point -- does the writer appear INSIDE the tale as HIMSELF OR HERSELF, own name and persona, as a character? In the "narcissistic" fantasies of winning the lottery (or in my case, a Stoker Award ), the fantasizer is always a character in -- the star of -- the "story." (And those fantasies tend to be simple, stereotypical, and repetitious, I think.) In the created-world kind of fantasy, the creator need not be present AS HIMSELF/HERSELF in the "story" -- but may be, of course. CSL thought the author usually wasn't thus present, because he didn't do it that way himself. LL&P, Margaret ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 20:02:41 -0800 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jaye Subject: rewriting stories + misc. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Jacqueline - I did that wtih Yentl when i read the short story! I put in a scene with INCREDIBLY vivid detail and many years later was shocked to find that it was not in the story! Oh - I'm thrilled! Today I got my copies of 2 of the Savage Empire books, and Channel's Destiny from that All-Electric Books. (I was the first one to order FC - HOORAY lucky me!) Since I started college Tuesday, I have no idea when I'll have a chance to read the 2 SE books, but when I do get a chance, I expect to have a wonderful time with them. (I got the FC in case anything ever happens to the copy I have now.) And..... in one of our classes, we have to do a self-revelation assignment. The class is "cross-cultural counseling." One of the questions we have to write an answer to and answer orally to the WHOLE CLASS is "What is your favorite book/movie/TV show and why?" So over 20 people are going to at least HEAR about the S~G universe sometime between 4 and 6 on Monday night!!! And the great part is that S~G is right ON TOPIC for a cross-cultural class... especially if you look at it from Rimon and Kadi's point of view, or Laneff's when she went to visit her friend in Gen territory, or Digen's in Westfield... Wish me luck! Jean - Hehe... I'd add "on average" to your saying an encyclopedia is only used a dozen times a year... there's one end of the spectrum - people who can't spell "encyclopedia" OR "encyclopaedia", couldn't find the word in an alphabetical list, and wouldn't care if they could... and people like me at the other end... who keeps it in my CD drive constantly so I can do quickie checks on whatever strikes my curiosity. To anyone - I'm curious what percent of the price of a book goes to an author. Does it vary - does Steven King get more per book than Sally Smith or Janey Jesse who's just publishing her first Romance? And does anyone know what kind of payment is normal upfront for a children's book, especially from a first-time author? Are we looking at a few hundred, or a couple thou, or... well, I'm SURE it's not more than that. I have two stories written that I envision as a book (I think for kindergarteners, first graders... I think school librarians will love it to read aloud to kids and I hope kids will like too) but I'm terriried to shop them out for fear my up front payments may disqualify me for my SSI payments, and I know up=front payments are one-time, not monthly. I know so little about the publishing world! Jaye http://www.wingedharper.com/ "Old Friends, they mean much more to me than new friends Cos they can see where you are, and they know where you've been. Harry Chapin ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 23:14:20 -0600 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jean Lorrah Subject: Jaye's questions Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To Jaye, First, was it the website I posted the other day that you got the SE books from? Second, royalties on paperback books are generally 6% of cover price to the author for the first 100,000 copies, 8% thereafter. Usually 12% for a hardcover. Big Names sell more books, but rarely get higher percentages. Really Big Seller Names may get the number that have to sell at 6% reduced--"straight eight" means you've got it made--you start getting 8% with the first book sold. I don't know what advances are on children's books, but an advance is _against royalties_. The higher your advance, the longer it takes to earn out. If your book doesn't sell, you do have the advance, but you'll never get any royalties and in today's market you will never sell another book. Jean Jean Lorrah A21711F@msumusik.mursuky.edu (If no reply in 72 hours, try Jean1@Juno.com) The E-mail of the species is more deadly than the mail. http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3439 http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4165 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Apr 1998 02:47:22 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: John Cowan Subject: Re: Jaye's questions In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19980404051420.0069bc90@msumusik.mursuky.edu> from "Jean Lorrah" at Apr 3, 98 11:14:20 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jean Lorrah writes: > Big Names sell more books, but rarely get higher percentages. > Really Big Seller Names may get the number that have to sell at 6% > reduced--"straight eight" means you've got it made--you start getting 8% > with the first book sold. To which I would add: Really, Really, *Really* Big Names have their own lawyers who negotiate per-book contracts that can say almost *anything*. -- John Cowan cowan@ccil.org e'osai ko sarji la lojban. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Apr 1998 08:48:50 -0800 Reply-To: "Donald R. Jaramillo" Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: "Donald R. Jaramillo" Subject: Re: Books Available MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----Original Message----- From: Jean Lorrah To: SIMEGEN-L@SIU.EDU Date: Friday, April 03, 1998 2:27 PM Subject: Re: Books Available >Anyone on the list--if you see Savage Empire Books in good condition--buy >them! If no one on the list wants them at that moment, I will take them, >because someone will soon come along who wants them. But sell them directly >to a reader who wants them if you can, because if they go through me they >get double postage added to the price. Jean > I'll see what I can do. I found some in a Campbell, CA bookstore, but I didn't have the cash at the time. I'll drop by again. Don Jaramillo ddraig@stattenfield.org don@stattenfield.org http://www.stattenfield.org/don/ ICQ: 2869199 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Apr 1998 09:02:53 -0800 Reply-To: "Donald R. Jaramillo" Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: "Donald R. Jaramillo" Subject: Re: OMNI dies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----Original Message----- From: Robyn King-Nitschke To: SIMEGEN-L@SIU.EDU Date: Thursday, April 02, 1998 1:10 PM Subject: Re: OMNI dies >I expect it'll be something like a more sophisticated version of >the PalmPilot. It's a little larger than a deck of cards (5" by >4" or so) and most of it is screen. You communicate with it by >writing on the screen with a little stylus (kind of like the >Newton, but this one actually caught on and is selling well). > >Once they get it to the point where it's in color and affordable >(you can already send and receive email on it, and make it interface >with your desktop PC) I think the reader problem might be solved. One of my housemates uses her palm pilot to read books a lot. Unfortunately, these books seem to be a special format provided by the Palm Pilot people. To be truely useful, it would have to be able to read a number of formats, TXT, HTML, RTF, etc. > >Still a bit expensive, though--around $250. I've begun to see the personal version (without e-mail) being sold at Fry's and other discount places for $167. Namaste! Don Jaramillo ddraig@stattenfield.org don@stattenfield.org http://www.stattenfield.org/don/ ICQ: 2869199 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Apr 1998 23:57:26 -0800 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jaye Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Jean - Yeah, it was the web page you told us about that I got the books from! I have to thank you immensely for letting us know about it!!!! ;) Thanks for the info on income for book writers. I knew it was low, but didn't know just what kind of numbers we were talking. So a low advance may be the better way to go, then. Especially if a high one may mess me up for SSI. I appreciate that information. It gives me some idea of what I'm looking at. Jaye http://www.wingedharper.com/ "Old Friends, they mean much more to me than new friends Cos they can see where you are, and they know where you've been. Harry Chapin ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Apr 1998 12:07:13 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Sandra Gray Subject: Re: Children's books Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Aren't there some children's book publishers that offer a flat fee instead of royalties? Sandra sandragray@rica.net ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Apr 1998 13:18:14 -0600 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Edward Bornstein Subject: GOSS: Arthur C. Clarke Update - Tabloid Charges "Demolished" by Investigation Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I just saw this posted in rec.arts.sf.written, and recall this nasty business was posted to the list before. >-- start of forwarded message -- >From: K-Mac@worldnet.att.net (Michael Kube-McDowell) > >My esteemed colleague and collaborator Sir Arthur Clarke has asked me >to help circulate and propagate the following notices, and I'm more >than happy to do so. These were undated, but were received here on >April 2, 1998. > >> STATEMENT BY SIR ARTHUR'S EXECUTIVE SECRETARY > > The disgraceful allegations made against Sir Arthur by a >British Sunday paper have now been conclusively demolished. The >local broadcaster who had taped some of the most serious charges has >now sworn, under oath, that they were completely false. And Sir >Arthur is very grateful to the IGP and the Crimes Department of the >Sri Lanka Police for locating and questioning the other persons >mentioned. > The attempts by the paper to link Sir Arthur's name with >dubious organisations and individuals suspected to be involved in >child-abuse cases have also been proved to be fabrications - or >downright lies - by the reporters concerned, who are now themselves >under investigation. (One had lost his job attempting to sell a >fraudulent 'scoop' to a British tabloid!) > In a last-ditch effort to maintain credibility, the London >paper now claims to have an incriminating tape. This is in fact a >tape which Sir Arthur insisted on making himself, and giving to the >reporters, expressing his abhorrence of any form of sexual >exploitation - especially that involving children. Some of his >statements have been deliberately taken out of context, to convey the >exact opposite of his meaning. > It now seems probable that this whole affair was an attempt to >embarrass the Government on the eve of Prince Charles' visit for the >50th Independence Day Celebrations (when he would have formally >invested Sir Arthur with his knighthood 'for services to literature'.) > Fortunately, there was enough time for the authorities, here >and in the UK, to ascertain that the charges were groundless. Sir >Arthur attended the Independence Day Banquet and was warmly greeted by >H.E. the President and the Prince of Wales. The photos of Prince >Charles and Sir Arthur laughing and shaking hands speak more >eloquently than many thousands of words. > It has since been discovered that certain persons and >individuals here in Sri Lanka have been engaged for several years in >attempts to discredit Sir Arthur for their own purposes. So although >the case against him may now be regarded as closed, another >investigation is now under way in Colombo to look into this. And, of >course, in view of the immense damage done to Sir Arthur's reputation, >his London and Washington lawyers are now considering what further >action he should take. > >> STATEMENT BY SIR ARTHUR CLARKE > > Since the Independence Day Banquet, at which I was very >happy to have received sympathetic greetings from dozens of >ambassadors and other dignitaries, I have also received a flood of >good wishes from friends, known and unknown, all over the world. And >here in Colombo, perfect strangers now go out of their way to wish me >well - and to congratulate me on the millions in damages they fully >expect me to collect. It has even been suggested, ironically, that in >the long run my legal income may far outstrip my literary one... > That remains to be seen, but if I do receive any of the >compensation to which I feel morally entitled, it will all come to >Sri Lanka. And it will be used to support genuine children and young >persons' organisations here, as well as the Ragama Rehabilitation >Hospital, of which I am honoured to be Patron. > The first months of 1998 have been the most unpleasant of my >life, but I am now certain that out of evil may come forth a great >deal of good. And I hope that I have been able to protect other >innocent persons, who may not be in a position to defend themselves >from scoundrels willing to destroy a reputation for the sake of a >headline. > Sir Arthur Clarke, Kt., CBE > -30- > > > > > > > ---] Michael Paul McDowell, writing as Michael P. Kube-McDowell > ---] Member SFWA, Inc. * Member WGA, East, Inc. > ---] Author of EXILE * THE QUIET POOLS * THE BLACK FLEET CRISIS > ---] Web Site: http://www.sff.net/people/K-Mac > >-- end of forwarded message -- >-- >"As the _Dying Swan _ spurted from the momship's belly, worldkiller >starbombs gestating beneath savage winglets, to featherfall upon the >somnolent globe, Li-Hon Auletek, the Living Buddha of the Universal >Pacifist Church, parted his lips in a wolverinesque sneer. " >My 1997 losing Bulwer-Lytton entry. Captain Button - button@io.com > -- "As the _Dying Swan _ spurted from the momship's belly, worldkiller starbombs gestating beneath savage winglets, to featherfall upon the somnolent globe, Li-Hon Auletek, the Living Buddha of the Universal Pacifist Church, parted his lips in a wolverinesque sneer. " My 1997 losing Bulwer-Lytton entry. Captain Button - button@io.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Apr 1998 21:35:34 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jean Lorrah Subject: Disjunction Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I've been thinking about junctedness and disjunction recently, and therefore have just reread _RenSime_, which I only ever read once, back when it was written. That's the one with the profligate use of selyn, inspiring the idea for a book about the Simes and Gens who discover how to draw selyn from another dimension. More about that later, when I know more--one of the Gens central to the discovery is Tonyo Logan's next incarnation, and he has only told me a very little about it so far. Anyway, and this is not news to Jacqueline, I once again found the final scene of _RenSime_ annoying, because the long and confusing kerduvon hallucination obscures Laneff's _real_ disjunction: the moment when she finally takes responsibility for her own life. Kerduvon only makes the physical disjunction possible--it cannot disjunct someone who has not achieved psychological disjunction. If Gens understood disjunction, they would trust disjunct renSimes much more than nonjunct ones. The trouble is knowing which ones are truly disjunct. What is missing for me in _RenSime_ is Laneff's true grief over the people she has killed. She is junct through most of the book, so it is exactly right that her sorrow is strictly for herself. Her first two kills are of strangers, a third-order Donor and a second-order channel. They were not people to her. But her junctedness is driven home after she kills Jarmi, and her only thoughts are me, me, me, me. After she truly disjuncts, it would have been nice if her physical disjunction had included her recognition of Jarmi as a person and a friend, and some true grief for a beloved life cut short. BTW--the act that is blamed for Jarmi's death, when she scratches her arms with her fingernails before transfer, is evidence of a physical difference between Gens and Ancients. Try it. Just _try_ to scratch yourself there hard enough to feel pain. There are almost no pain nerves in your forearms. People can get cut there and not even realize it till they see blood. Obviously Gens have selyn transport nerves there that we don't have, and those sensitive nerves also sense pain. I don't know why Digen is so distraught over being physically junct--he certainly knows he's not going to kill anybody, even if everyone thinks it's because of his lateral scar. It's really because he has never been junct in the sense of needing the kill. If he had never had that injury he would still be incapable of killing anyone--he'd abort out the moment he sensed Gen pain. No matter how stressed out he was, he would never kill. The problem is, without running every single disjunct or semi-junct Sime through the kind of horrendous test Jacqueline wrote about in _Sime Surgeon_, there is no way to tell whether a Sime is psychologically disjunct. Laneff was _not_; she was only physically disjunct, and so the first time her conditioning was tested, it broke. The second is her true disjunction, and I only wish the book made that clearer. The difference is this: in her first "disjunction" Laneff accepted allowing Gens and channels to prevent her from killing. In her second, real disjunction, she took the responsibility on herself, rejecting the "only a renSime" excuse. In "Reflection of a Dream," the story I have out searching for a home, hidden within the mystery is a pivotal point in Carla Stenner's life when she is witness to what disjunction really means. Zhag is technically junct--but not only has ne not killed in fifteen years, but he handles the crisis in the story alone, saving the life of a terrified out-T Gen. Carla may not be able to articulate it at that time, but she has absorbed through her pores the situation between Zhag and Tonyo. Zhag needs Tonyo--there is no doubt of that. But he does not need Tonyo to keep him from killing. He only needs him to keep him from dying. Not only do out-T Gens not understand that distinction, but almost no one in the Tecton understands it, either. Jean Jean Lorrah A21711F@msumusik.mursuky.edu (If no reply in 72 hours, try Jean1@Juno.com) You need imagination to form a notion of beauty at all, and still more to discover your ideal in an unfamiliar shape. --Joseph Conrad http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3439 http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4165 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Apr 1998 21:35:35 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jean Lorrah Subject: glitch in _Trinrose_ Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Just started rereading _Mahogany Trinrose_, and found a glitch that is probably due to the hatchet job Jacqueline and I did on it when the publisher decided it could not be published at the contracted length. Jacqueline, do you remember--originally did some time pass between the Prolog and Chapter One--at least a few days? Because as it now stands, overnight someone miraculously rebuilt a railroad trestle washed away in a flood in the prolog, for the very next day the train that uses that trestle brings in a whole new class of students for Rialite. Somehow our books always ended up being subject to drastic cutting that created problems like this one. Jean Jean Lorrah A21711F@msumusik.mursuky.edu (If no reply in 72 hours, try Jean1@Juno.com) You need imagination to form a notion of beauty at all, and still more to discover your ideal in an unfamiliar shape. --Joseph Conrad http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3439 http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4165 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Apr 1998 21:35:37 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jean Lorrah Subject: Muryin Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" There was some question about Muryin Farris (who for unknown reasons seems to speak to me more than she does to Jacqueline) and Tigue Gens. In _Zelerod's Doom_, Muryin has First Transfer from Sergi ambrov Keon, First Companion in Keon. Sergi is junct, but the concept of junct Gens will not surface for another generation. Sergi is not genealogically a Tigue, but his bloodline contributes to the Tigue mutation as it is actually identified. Sergi's direct ancestors have been Householders for several generations, first in Carre, then in Keon, so it is Risa's family name of Tigue that gets attached to the mutation. But the children and grandchildren of Risa and Sergi are the ones studied when the mutation is recognized. So, Muryin's crucial First Transfer for all practical purposes comes from a junct Tigue Gen. Muryin will therefore never be a typical Farris in some respects--but in others she is, including that habit of denial of gratification drilled into her by her father (see her changeover scene in ZD). So for many years she denies herself a search for a Companion who can give her what Sergi gave her, and stays with more staid Zeor and Tecton trained Donors. When she eventually walks away from Zeor (and she has yet to tell either Jacqueline or me the exact circumstances of that decision), I am sure that it is with a Companion who can emulate her First Transfer standard--probably another of those mysterious gypsy types from Rathor. Soon after Klyd walks away, and Muryin becomes Sectuib in Zeor, she meets Tonyo Logan, who has the same enticing characteristics as Sergi and is a fanir to boot. Had Tonyo not been in a committed relationship with Zhag, she would have invited him to pledge Zeor and probably married him. But that is not possible in this lifetime (they've done that--they were channel/Companion husband and wife in their previous incarnation), so she seduces Tonyo sexually instead, intending to get his Gen child, who she hopes will be a fanir, to be First Companion in Zeor to the channel she hopes to bear later. But even when Farrises plan, God laughs. Her child with Tonyo is Hilo Klyd Farris, a channel and the very devil of a child to raise. Hilo has his father's musical talent and carefree personality, and is always threatening to run away and join the band. But in the end he gets trapped as Sectuib in Zeor when his mother walks away. Hilo Klyd's story is another one that Jacqueline and I don't really know yet--all we know is that he was considered very strange, and an atypical Zeor Sectuib. BTW, Hilo is also very beautiful. He has the Farris black eyes and hair, but his hair curls like his father's, and like Tonyo's his eyes are breathtakingly large and soulful--look into them, and you'll be willing to do anything he wants. He is so strikingly gorgeous that people don't expect him to have a brain. Which he has. But he's a lateral thinker (which is not the same thing as thinking with his laterals). Jacqueline suggests that Muryin may also have had an affair with Oliver Tigue. Hmmm. I'm not so sure about that, as I think Muryin would see through him. On the other hand, if she knows Hilo Klyd is going to be a channel, she is still looking for a First Companion for him, and a Tigue Companion raised in Zeor might be perfect. Still, I think this one is one of Oliver's tall tales. Interesting stuff here, but best left lightly sketched for now, as it isn't yet time to tell these stories. My next project once I get some writing time is to turn the rough draft of the Zhag/Tonyo First Transfer story into a finished product. After that, I will probably next tackle the Madagascar story, which I am going to try to write in a different style. Just thought you guys might like to know what's running through my mind as I walk the dogs, go up and down stairs between classes, and drive around town. Oh, yes, I have always been one of that 4%. Jean Jean Lorrah A21711F@msumusik.mursuky.edu (If no reply in 72 hours, try Jean1@Juno.com) You need imagination to form a notion of beauty at all, and still more to discover your ideal in an unfamiliar shape. --Joseph Conrad http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3439 http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4165 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Apr 1998 21:35:32 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jean Lorrah Subject: Re: Children's books Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 12:07 PM 4/5/98 -0500, Sandra wrote: >Aren't there some children's book publishers that offer >a flat fee instead of royalties? Entirely possible. Publishers will try anything. Unless there are absolutely no other choices, never accept this option. A children's book in particular--if it has any success at all, it's likely to stay in print for a couple of generations! Imagine if A. A. Milne or Dr. Seuss had sold their books for a flat fee! Or J. M. Barrie. Or whoever wrote The Little Engine the Could or The Littlest Angel or even The Pokey Little Puppy. Who can tell which one is going to grab children's imaginations so hard that they will want copies for their children and grandchildren? Don't give away the possibility of a lifetime income for a few thousand dollars. Jean Jean Lorrah A21711F@msumusik.mursuky.edu (If no reply in 72 hours, try Jean1@Juno.com) You need imagination to form a notion of beauty at all, and still more to discover your ideal in an unfamiliar shape. --Joseph Conrad http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3439 http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4165 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Apr 1998 19:55:05 -0700 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Sylvia Engdahl Subject: Re: Children's books In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19980406023532.006bfa70@msumusik.mursuky.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sun, 5 Apr 1998, Jean Lorrah wrote: > At 12:07 PM 4/5/98 -0500, Sandra wrote: > >Aren't there some children's book publishers that offer > >a flat fee instead of royalties? > > Entirely possible. Publishers will try anything. > > Unless there are absolutely no other choices, never accept this option. A > children's book in particular--if it has any success at all, it's likely to > stay in print for a couple of generations! Imagine if A. A. Milne or Dr. > Seuss had sold their books for a flat fee! Or J. M. Barrie. Or whoever > wrote The Little Engine the Could or The Littlest Angel or even The Pokey > Little Puppy. Who can tell which one is going to grab children's > imaginations so hard that they will want copies for their children and > grandchildren? Don't give away the possibility of a lifetime income for a > few thousand dollars. Jean I don't think any publisher of trade children's books pays a flat fee instead of royalties. If any do this, it's for the short mass-market picture books sold in supermarkets or for special texts sold only to educational materials outlets, schools, etc. -- not books issued by regular publishers and sold in bookstores. Sylvia ________________________________________________________________________ Sylvia Engdahl - Eugene, Oregon Visit my Website! sengdahl@teleport.com http://www.teleport.com/~sengdahl ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Apr 1998 22:06:02 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Ronnie Bob Whitaker Subject: MEMORY: Enemy Mine Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sunday, 5 April 1998, Dear Gang, The flood of different memories (thanks to the member who could show the documented proof of how the series was released) reminded me that it is not always our own memories which fail. I particularly remember seeing the 35 mm release of Enemy Mine, then the 70 mm release of Enemy Mine, then a week later seeing it again, and they movies were considerably different. I must have seen one of the "pre-release" or "audience acceptance" versions of the movie which had additional scenes which helped explain some of the plot better (I knew the plot since I was familiar with the Barry B. Longyear story) that completely dissapeared in the version that was out the very next week, the only reason I could understand was that the length of the movie was cut from just above 2 hours to just below 2 hours, which seems to be one of the financial considerations for movie theaters for many movies. I was hoping that the video version would add the scenes back in, but it didn't. Then we have the films like Star Trek the Motion Picture which had scenes cut out to preserve the "G" rating and then added back into the video (particularly the scene of the body dissolving in the not quite functional transporter.) Blade Runner had additional scenes added back in and then later there was even a Director's Cut that had different scenes altogether. Many times the laser disk version was much more informative about the movies than the video tape version since you really had to be a videophile to want to watch movies on a laser disk with much higer quality (and expense to go along with it.) "Gone With the Wind" wasn't shown in several Southern states for many years because of the "vulgar" language. Several movies were cut in different ways for different markets, particularly in the earlier life of movies before the gigantic multiplex complexes. TV is even worse. The prime times shows (such as Star Trek) have scenes cut by each independent market that purchased the rights so that they can get more local advertising in the same "hour" of television broadcast. I saw this quite easily when I moved from place to place in the Army and continuously watched the same Star Trek episodes cut in different ways. That is one of the reasons why I wanted to buy the video tapes which had the full episode as broadcast by the network on it. Only if the movie has a rather large following will such "changes" or "differences" be fully documented. Thus in theory people watching different releases of the same movie will actually remember scenes that aren't on other releases of that very same movie in a different area or different release. I actually did get to see a 16mm version of the original release of the original Star Wars movie at an AAFEES theater (military only) which didn't have the Episode IV A New Hope in it, but I couldn't take that as how the original 35 mm show had been released until the documented evidence was presented. And of course, all of this is in addition to the additional "scenes" that our own memory might add in from different sources (trailers, advertisements, books, etc.) (Many of the coming attraction scenes wind up on the editor's cutting room floor and never make it into the movies. Now I have to decide if the European releases of Highlander are worth the price? Hmmm. Having Fun in the Sime~Gen Universe, Ronnie Bob ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Apr 1998 21:09:57 -0700 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: J-Man Subject: Re: glitch in _Trinrose_ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Prolog and Chapter One--at least a few days? Because as it now stands, > overnight someone miraculously rebuilt a railroad trestle washed away in a > flood in the prolog, for the very next day the train that uses that trestle > brings in a whole new class of students for Rialite. > I never noticed, I was too busy being entertained by the story. :) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Apr 1998 21:14:44 -0700 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: J-Man Subject: Re: Muryin MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Just thought you guys might like to know what's running through my mind as I > walk the dogs, go up and down stairs between classes, and drive around town. > Oh, yes, I have always been one of that 4%. Jean > Thanks Jean. You and Jacqueline certainly are personable (a thing that impresses me). BTW, what classes are you taking? ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Apr 1998 21:22:30 -0700 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: J-Man Subject: Re: MEMORY: Enemy Mine MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Then we have the films like Star Trek the Motion Picture which had > scenes cut out to preserve the "G" rating and then added back into the video > (particularly the scene of the body dissolving in the not quite functional > transporter.) Blade Runner had additional scenes added back in and then > later there was even a Director's Cut that had different scenes altogether. > Many times the laser disk version was much more informative about the movies > than the video tape version since you really had to be a videophile to want > to watch movies on a laser disk with much higer quality (and expense to go > along with it.) Yes, I have the DVD version of Blade Runner, that has a lot of new stuff including a dream sequence that changes the ending. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Apr 1998 23:29:27 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jean Lorrah Subject: Re: Muryin Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 09:14 PM 4/5/98 -0700, J-man wrote: >Thanks Jean. You and Jacqueline certainly are personable (a thing that >impresses me). BTW, what classes are you taking? Thanks, Darlin'! I _teach_ English and Humanities at Murray State University. Jean Jean Lorrah A21711F@msumusik.mursuky.edu (If no reply in 72 hours, try Jean1@Juno.com) You need imagination to form a notion of beauty at all, and still more to discover your ideal in an unfamiliar shape. --Joseph Conrad http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3439 http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4165 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Apr 1998 21:43:05 -0700 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: J-Man Subject: Re: Muryin MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I _teach_ English and Humanities at Murray State University. Jean > Ahh, a TEACHER. When I graduated HS, I was an english major myself. (one of those guys who always blew the bell curve on the tests and ended up making tons of friends.) :) I just took an assessment test for a Colorado branch of Hewlitt-Packard, and found that I have forgotten so much english that I'd have to go back to school in order to catch up. As far as math goes... .... ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 14:09:20 -0700 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jaye Subject: Re: SIMEGEN-L Digest - 4 Apr 1998 to 5 Apr 1998 In-Reply-To: <199804060500.AAA44240@saluki-mail.siu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sandra Gray >Aren't there some children's book publishers that offer >a flat fee instead of royalties? Even if there were, I'd rather take my chance on the royalties. Jean Lorrah I have to disagree with one thing... nerves in the arms. I agree that the arms aren't the most sensitive parts of the body, but there's quite a high degree of pain possible from them. I used to use my forearm to produce counterirritant pain during times when other pain was quite severe (many years ago.) I also wonder what effect Ronaplin would have on brand-new scratches. (Jacqueline? Any comment on that?) Good point about neither the Tecton nor Out-T Gens understanding that a Sime can choose not to kill. On MT - I'd assumed that the train that brings the new students came from the opposite direction. (score one for not telling more than you need to!) thanks for the update on Zhag and Tonyo and Muryin and everyone!!!! I LOVE hearing stuff like this!!!! Thanks for the feedback on the flat fee/royalty thing!!!! I don't think I'd ever take a flat fee for a book... like everything, publishing is a gamble, and... this sounds kinda egotistical, but I have faith in these stories. I think people will like them. (I'm not there with longer stories yet, but with these 2 kid's stories, I really do believe in them.) We have an example of someone to took a flat fee: the guys who invented Superman. talk about getting royally shafted for all those years! Jaye http://www.wingedharper.com/ "Old Friends, they mean much more to me than new friends Cos they can see where you are, and they know where you've been. Harry Chapin ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 06:29:54 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jean Lorrah Subject: Ronaplin Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Jaye asks, >I also >wonder what effect Ronaplin would have on brand-new scratches. (Jacqueline? >Any >comment on that?) Ronaplin is a conductor--so it would conduct whatever sensation there is, pain of pleasure. Jacqueline? Jean Jean Lorrah A21711F@msumusik.mursuky.edu (If no reply in 72 hours, try Jean1@Juno.com) You need imagination to form a notion of beauty at all, and still more to discover your ideal in an unfamiliar shape. --Joseph Conrad http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3439 http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4165 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 08:19:09 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Kandace Klumper Subject: MOVIES: Memories MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ronnie Bob wrote -->
Now I have to decide if the European releases of Highlander are worth the price? Hmmm. << Personally, I want those additional minutes!!! :) There's a flashback in = 4th season that shows Richie 'waking up' while Duncan is holding Tessa's li= feless body. I'm figuring in order to get that flashback they had to have = filmed it for that second season ep 'The Darkness', and I'm also figuring t= hat additional footage will show up on the European release. Anyway I hope= it does, because as soon as I feel I have the discretionary funds to splur= ge I'm ordering 1st and 2nd seasons. :) The Darkness remains one of the most difficult episodes for me to watch. I= hadn't known for sure what had happened to Tessa because my ability to cat= ch Highlander had been spotty, so when USA started broadcasting, I started = recording and quickly caught up. I vividly remember thoughts when I saw th= e opening seconds of that ep. I went, "Oh my God this is it, I just know t= his is it", but I was hoping I was wrong. Granted, I was taken off guard b= y 'when' it happened, but it shook me to the core. Their choice of Kansas'= Dust in the Wind couldn't have been more poignant. Ah well, enough moonga= zing. ciao Kandy Klumper klumperk@btnt1.boystown.org OR kandacek@home.com * If you're into scrapbooking, crafts or other things of that nature * * give them a jingle at http://www.jangle.com, hot tips and cool * * news = * ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 23:43:25 +1000 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: "Jenn V." Subject: Re: Disjunction MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jean Lorrah wrote: > > BTW--the act that is blamed for Jarmi's death, when she scratches her arms > with her fingernails before transfer, is evidence of a physical difference > between Gens and Ancients. Try it. Just _try_ to scratch yourself there > hard enough to feel pain. There are almost no pain nerves in your forearms. > People can get cut there and not even realize it till they see blood. > Obviously Gens have selyn transport nerves there that we don't have, and > those sensitive nerves also sense pain. Um.... Yup. Either I'm a mutant, or there's some problem with the above paragraph. Just did that - scratched my forearms all the way down, with the fingernails of the long three fingers of the opposite hand. Admittedly, it's not the same level of pain as if I'd stubbed my toe - and considerably less than if I'd broken a toe (everyone feel sorry for my husband, who did that last week!), but it's not exactly comfortable. And yeah, I'm -exactly- the kind of idiot who tries things like this just to be sure if it's accurate. :) Jenn V. -- It's amazing where you can go with a completely false premise Jenn Vesperman jenn@brisnet.org.au http://www.brisnet.org.au/~jenn ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 23:50:07 +1000 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: "Jenn V." Subject: Re: Muryin MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit J-Man wrote: > > > Just thought you guys might like to know what's running through my mind as I > > walk the dogs, go up and down stairs between classes, and drive around town. > > Oh, yes, I have always been one of that 4%. Jean > > > > Thanks Jean. You and Jacqueline certainly are personable (a thing that > impresses me). BTW, what classes are you taking? Teaching, almost certainly. I believe that Jean is entitled to be called 'Doctor Lorrah'. (Of course, 'taking' is also entirely possible.) Jenn V. -- It's amazing where you can go with a completely false premise Jenn Vesperman jenn@brisnet.org.au http://www.brisnet.org.au/~jenn ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 10:30:46 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: John Cowan Organization: Lojban Peripheral Subject: Re: Muryin MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit J-Man wrote: > When I graduated HS, I was an english major myself. Of what regiment? :-) -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn. You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn. Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (FW 16.5) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 08:12:26 -0700 Reply-To: "Donald R. Jaramillo" Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: "Donald R. Jaramillo" Subject: Re: MEMORY: Enemy Mine MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----Original Message----- From: Ronnie Bob Whitaker To: SIMEGEN-L@SIU.EDU Date: Sunday, April 05, 1998 8:37 PM Subject: MEMORY: Enemy Mine >Sunday, 5 April 1998, >Dear Gang, > The flood of different memories (thanks to the member who could show >the documented proof of how the series was released) reminded me that it is >not always our own memories which fail. I particularly remember seeing the >35 mm release of Enemy Mine, then the 70 mm release of Enemy Mine, then a >week later seeing it again, and they movies were considerably different. I >must have seen one of the "pre-release" or "audience acceptance" versions of >the movie which had additional scenes which helped explain some of the plot >better (I knew the plot since I was familiar with the Barry B. Longyear >story) that completely dissapeared in the version that was out the very next >week, the only reason I could understand was that the length of the movie >was cut from just above 2 hours to just below 2 hours, which seems to be one >of the financial considerations for movie theaters for many movies. I was >hoping that the video version would add the scenes back in, but it didn't. Now that interests me a lot! I'm a big fan of the Enemy Mine stories of Barry Longyear. Have you reas _The Tomorrow Testament_? Good stuff! I wonder if a LD or DVD version of Enemy Mine has or will come out with, as a housemate of mine says "all the bells and whistles." Those can be very interesting. What was taken out between the showing, Ronnie Bob? > Then we have the films like Star Trek the Motion Picture which had >scenes cut out to preserve the "G" rating and then added back into the video >(particularly the scene of the body dissolving in the not quite functional >transporter.) Blade Runner had additional scenes added back in and then >later there was even a Director's Cut that had different scenes altogether. >Many times the laser disk version was much more informative about the movies >than the video tape version since you really had to be a videophile to want >to watch movies on a laser disk with much higer quality (and expense to go >along with it.) How was the director's cut of Blade Runner? > Only if the movie has a rather large following will such "changes" or >"differences" be fully documented. Thus in theory people watching different >releases of the same movie will actually remember scenes that aren't on >other releases of that very same movie in a different area or different >release. I actually did get to see a 16mm version of the original release >of the original Star Wars movie at an AAFEES theater (military only) which >didn't have the Episode IV A New Hope in it, but I couldn't take that as how >the original 35 mm show had been released until the documented evidence was >presented. Since we're also talking about Star Wars memories, I have some of my own memories of missing scenes. In the first release of Star Wars (later subtitled "A New Hope"), there was a scene when Han and Chewie were being chased through the corridors. As they approach the blast doors, one can hear the storm troopers radioing, "Close the blast doors, close the blast doors!" Han and Chewie jump through before they close, so the troopers than call out "Open the blast doors, open the blast doors!" In later versions, it is assumed that the blaster fire closes the door, not the bad coordination of the stormtroopers. Another scene was the scene on Yavin with Biggs, which was, thankefully returned on the Special Edition--too bad they didn't have the Tatooine scenes available for that version. :-) > And of course, all of this is in addition to the additional "scenes" >that our own memory might add in from different sources (trailers, >advertisements, books, etc.) (Many of the coming attraction scenes wind up >on the editor's cutting room floor and never make it into the movies. We finally saw "Austin Powers" on Laserdisk and found that out. In the added stuff at the end, they showed the "We're called flight attendants" scene as it exists (a combination of final footage and rough dailies). The one line was used in the ads, but never made it to the film. > Now I have to decide if the European releases of Highlander are worth >the price? Hmmm. I've been wondering that myself. Namaste! Don Jaramillo ddraig@stattenfield.org don@stattenfield.org http://www.stattenfield.org/don/ ICQ: 2869199 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 12:31:44 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jean Lorrah Subject: SMOF: Thanks, Guys! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Thank you to everyone who took the time to go to the Bucconeer Program site and say you would like to see me on the program. I received my invitation today, and will tend to it ASAP. Jean Jean Lorrah A21711F@msumusik.mursuky.edu (If no reply in 72 hours, try Jean1@Juno.com) You need imagination to form a notion of beauty at all, and still more to discover your ideal in an unfamiliar shape. --Joseph Conrad http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3439 http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4165 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 13:09:31 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Captain Button Subject: SILLY: The Things I Will Do If I Am Ever the Vampire MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII This is the latest outgrowth of the "Evil Overlord" List. Thought it might amuse some on the list. -- forwarded message -- From: Keith Morrison Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written,rec.arts.sf.tv,rec.arts.sf.movies Subject: The Things I Will Do If I Am Ever the Vampire Date: Fri, 03 Apr 1998 16:26:00 -0700 1. Attractive as the Hero's Devoted Love is, I will not attempt to take her until the Hero is very, very dead. 2. My Faithful Servant will not be a bug-eating moron. 3. I will not waste my time slowly trying to destroy the Hero's life by killing and/or converting his friends and relatives. This merely makes him angry. 4. There are thousands of disturbed people who *want* to be vampires. Why take the risk with someone who doesn't? 5. Formal dress clothing will be saved for formal occasio