========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 02:15:14 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Karen Litman Subject: Star Trek in Practice - Nichelle I didn't see the interview Ronnie Bob refers to, but I understand it was on "Larry King Live" shortly after Thomas Nichols was identified. That would make it Friday (maybe) and excerpts were printed in my local paper (The Press of Atlantic City NJ) where the usual dignity Nichelle projects, and the spirit of Star Trek shone through. Some of the printed media gave her the dignity that she asked for, where most of the televised media are still lamenting the "Star Trek" connection to the "cult fanatics." Odd how some people interpret things... especially since the TV media doesn't "sell papers" in the aspect of exploiting the Trek/Cult connection in a print medium might. Still the reference in TV news programs might boost ratings for said networks. I med Nichelle years ago, and have a great love and respect for her. Karen Litman ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 06:53:31 -0600 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jean Lorrah Subject: Re: Star Trek in Practice--Nichelle At 12:48 AM 4/1/97 EST, you wrote: >> Thus I can grieve with Nichelle about her loss, but I can respect her >>stand on the proper attitude to put this event into perspective even more. > >Beautifully said, Ronnie Bob. I saw part of this interview...missed the long >one, and you're right, it won't make headlines anywhere. People taking >responsibility for themselves, and granting others that right, isn't newsworthy >in this country, for some reason. I wish that were because it was so >commonplace that it just plain wasn't NEWS, but I don't think it is. And I'm >NOT a cynic, would you believe? Call me Pollyanna--or Edith Keeler >--but I think it *will* be commonplace someday. > >Joanne Schechter It is commonplace now. Nichelle Nichols appeared on Larry King Live, one of the most popular shows on CNN. She had at least half an hour, and maybe an hour--I didn't see it. Clips of her graceful honesty were picked up and used on all the networks and on Entertainment Tonight. Jean Jean Lorrah A21711f@msumusik.mursuky.edu (alternate Jean1@Juno.com) http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3439/,http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4165/ "I don't think happiness is a permanent state; it's some kind of treaty you make with your circumstances at the time."--Robert Plant ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 10:09:14 -1758 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Leigh Kimmel Subject: Re: Star Trek in Practice--Nichelle >NOT a cynic, would you believe? Call me Pollyanna--or Edith Keeler >--but I think it *will* be commonplace someday. > Please excuse my ignorance, but who's Edith Keeler? I have a feeling that I should recognize this name from someplace, but I'm drawing a blank. "I do believe my crucifixion before the public has about reached its limit." ---- Admiral Husband E. Kimmel Leigh Kimmel -- writer, artist and historian kimmel@siu.edu http://members.tripod.com/~kimmel/LHKwebpage.html keeper of the Sime~Gen mailing list, simegen-l@siu.edu Ask me how to order the new S~G novel!!! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 11:12:34 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg Subject: Work:GoodBookWithGoodEnding -- [ From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg * EMC.Ver #3.0 ] -- WorkFolk: I wrote: > > that the CHARACTERS GROW. They learn and change and adapt. Rhonda replied: > Actually, you CAN put it in a TV series...that was the neatest thing about > MTM's series The Cape. The characters DID grow, and acted like real people, > not cardboard. But it got canceled anyway. Actually, I was taking that and many other "cancellations anyway" into account in my original statement. The difference between a professional commercial artist and the other sorts (equally "respectable" but operating on different principles) of artist is that the commercial artist understands that these "good" shows got cancelled BECAUSE the characters grew/changed/adapted - not "in spite of". To learn this for a fact for yourself, you have to be on the "insider grapevine" - the industry trades - and watch the reasoning happen when choices have to be made. Once you understand that mechanism whereby cancellation decisions are made, then you MIGHT have a chance to be a force of change within that industry. Without that knowledge, you haven't a chance of being heard, nevermind understood or taken seriously. The reason I think it worthwhile to address the system as it stands now rather than destroying or abandoning it is that I SEE that this system has a mechanism built into it so that the system can change/adapt/grow. It's big, and ponderous and slow to respond, and makes a perceptible response only to very large factors (and you and I are not large factors) -- but the mechanism is there. Other systems around this Earth don't have that response mechanism at all. The WEB and other such innovations are starting to make this response mechanism more sensitive to smaller forces. It's only the very tiniest change - not registered yet on any measuring device currently respected in the industry - but as an sf-futurologist, I see this as a truly significant change. I watched 2 old Shirley Temple movies on AMC the other day - back to back - and learned a LOT about this mechanism, and a lot about the definition of genre. Shirley Temple movies were a genre all by themselves and have never been duplicated or imitated successfully. Except possibly by ST - but I haven't finished thinking about that yet. Contrast/compare VOYAGER and Shirley Temple Movies. An excersize. There will be no quiz. Do it succ$$$fully and you could make your fortune. Live Long and Prosper, Jacqueline Lichtenberg !!!!!!!Find out how to get the next Sime~Gen novel!!!!!!!! Visit The Zeor Site, click Directory, and you'll find how to sign up for the new novel. And there are five Sime~Gen fanzine novels now posted on The Zeor Site at http://www.j51.com/~zeor I reserve the right to repost any comment that comes to me that is NOT MARKED DNQ or in some way obviously personal. My SF Review Column is posted monthly at http://www.lightworks. com/MonthlyAspectarian Join the Sime~Gen Listserve or surf the Virtual Tecton starting at Tecton Central http://www.best.com/~shadorat/sg/sgfr.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 11:13:25 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg Subject: Re: Star Trek in Practice - Nichelle -- [ From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg * EMC.Ver #3.0 ] -- Ronnie Bob wrote so elloquently: I was wondering what this says about us as a nation, and about the "news" organization which we entrust to provide us with information. Am I alone in believing that a more distraught and accusative Nichelle would have been plastered all over the news channels? Why would that be "news" and the "real" reaction that she had not? JL here - this actually pertains to a discussion on the WORK topic (another go-round about the professional commercial artist). I pointed out that novels are the only fiction form where characters are allowed to grow and change (as is required in good fiction) and a number of folks have posted TV shows which are examples of character growth. Not one of those shows has had a 25+ year run though. In my column recently (I forget which month is which because I do them in advance) or forthcoming, I discuss NEWS MEDIA as an entertainment genre. If Ronnie Bob hasn't seen that column yet - well, I wouldn't be surprised. We all know the caliber of that man's mind by now. Yes - I agree that Nichelle could have made a splash with the media by saying what she perfectly well knows would gain her attention. Instead, she said the truth. I've known her personally, slightly - years ago and from time to time -- and yes, she lives by those values. It's not a publicity sham or a public persona. It's the way she functions at the gut level -- and that's why GR chose her for TOS! And the same for many of the other actors. I don't know the VOYAGER actors personally - but I know someone who does - and it seems there's a certain tradition established here. But we still haven't gotten a "Gunsmoke" out of Trek, and that's what we need. "We" being the sf community in general. "News" and "fiction" entertainment on TV both give the public what the public wants - not what you or I want. "News" isn't about information these days (never has been actually, but it's less informative now than I can ever remember it being.) "fiction" TV isn't good art. There are reasons for that. Learn those reasons, and we have a chance to build ourselves a corner of Cyberspace that caters to our (admittedly minority) tastes. I hope everyone on this List has read Alvin Toffler's 70's book FUTURE SHOCK . Almost everything he predicted is happening or appears about to happen. The Virtual Office. Telecommuting. Home Based Businesses. Everything major and a number of minor predictions - true. The trend he spotted and then applied to make those predictions was the impact of the computer on how people live. In specific, that as this trend takes hold, we will have more CUSTOMIZATION and less MASS PRODUCTION. In other words, the individual doesn't have to adjust to the majority -- everyone can have their burger their way. A few days ago, I made myself a customized newspaper (free) on Yahoo. Toffler predicted that - with only a few details off. The same trend is affecting the fiction industry - which is why paper- printed book sales are down. Anything that can make it into (expensive to print and distribute) paperprint is aimed at the peak of the majority distribution curve. In point of fact, there is no one alive who is at that peak -- the "typical" 2 1/2 children per family idea. People want their EVERYTHING customized because they're getting used to that . Reuters carried an item on a computer conference where investors are worrying now about the "business model" for cyberspace - it has eaten lots of capital and not returned anything but losses on the investment. Yahoo is making it with advertising. The soap operas on the Web company is bankrupt. Juno (free email) groaned and cracked under the demand from subscribers coupled to a lack of advertisers who wanted those particular subscribers (they never sent ME any ads! - and I filled out their questionnaire carefully because I wanted certain kinds of ads to come my way). This euphemism "business model" is Wall Street for my coinage "conduit" on the WORK topic a few months ago. These investors are trying to find a "model" that already exists to apply to cyberspace. Yet there are a number out there working on creating and trying out different sorts of models. A lot more creative thought has to go into this - and Nichelle's philosophy about her brother is the foundation of that kind of thinking. Toffler observed that technology was allowing us to customize our lives - not to chisel our points and peaks off to squeeze into the standard sized holes "industry" provides. Nichelle observed that people can and should make their own choices and BE RESPECTED for that. The current "business models" being explored for cyberspace do NOT take those philsophies into account. They're all looking for a way to "mass produce" products in cyberspace. Toffler saw in the '70's that the "mass production" "business model" is dead - was dead by the 60's when he did his research. Juno tried to customize advertising delivery - and hasn't made it yet. But they're not dead - just pulling back the amount of free stuff they offer and where they offer it. Apprently, they still serve high-density markets. (but not Jean and me). That means that they "see" their success chances are better with "mass production" than with customization. We need to figure out a thing like Juno for delivering fiction that works more profitably in the boonies than in town - if we can do that, then we'll have the new "business model" nailed. Gnawing on what Nichelle said and how and why it did not get picked up by all the services and repeated for three days - that may provide the clue we need. Live Long and Prosper, Jacqueline Lichtenberg !!!!!!!Find out how to get the next Sime~Gen novel!!!!!!!! Visit The Zeor Site, click Directory, and you'll find how to sign up for the new novel. And there are five Sime~Gen fanzine novels now posted on The Zeor Site at http://www.j51.com/~zeor I reserve the right to repost any comment that comes to me that is NOT MARKED DNQ or in some way obviously personal. My SF Review Column is posted monthly at http://www.lightworks. com/MonthlyAspectarian Join the Sime~Gen Listserve or surf the Virtual Tecton starting at Tecton Central http://www.best.com/~shadorat/sg/sgfr.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 10:24:05 -1758 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Leigh Kimmel Subject: Re: Star Trek in Practice - Nichelle >dignity that she asked for, where most of the televised media are still >lamenting the "Star Trek" connection to the "cult fanatics." Odd how some >people interpret things... especially since the TV media doesn't "sell >papers" in the aspect of exploiting the Trek/Cult connection in a print Unfortunately many people have the image that all sf/fantasy fans are crazy, and incidents like this will only serve to make it worse. It makes me think of an incident that happened at Egyptian Campaign this weekend. There's a local man who's mentally ill and whose mental illness manifests through his fondness for sf and fantasy -- for instance, he apparently thinks he's Dr. Who. Somebody said that "he's the sort of person who gives fandom a bad name." "I do believe my crucifixion before the public has about reached its limit." ---- Admiral Husband E. Kimmel Leigh Kimmel -- writer, artist and historian kimmel@siu.edu http://members.tripod.com/~kimmel/LHKwebpage.html keeper of the Sime~Gen mailing list, simegen-l@siu.edu Ask me how to order the new S~G novel!!! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 10:32:32 -1758 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Leigh Kimmel Subject: Re: literalism and figurative language >Don't bother. Those students are not your audience. They don't like to >read anything but non-fiction, and do so only when forced to for a class. >If they ever come to understand metaphor it will be through film--but this >sort of person will probably avoid any film that is not literal, as well. > >Such people have always been with us--I encounter them because I teach >required courses, and you encounter them because they have to use the >library while they are in college. They will not read fiction or poetry >once they get away from those required courses. > I wouldn't be so worried if it were just students in class, or people on newsgroups, who were getting into a tizzy over my use of figurative language. What worries me is that at least two of them have been in relation to stories, and were from people who were supposedly avid readers who should be expected to be able to understand the difference between literal and figurative uses of words. One case was over the use of the expression "her head soared" to describe a euphoric reaction -- they said that it sounded like the character's head had popped off and was floating around in the air by itself. I'll admit that perhaps that's a cliche' and hasn't graduated to the status of idiomatic expression yet, but if that was their complaint, they should _say so_. Taking it so literally only succeeds in making them look silly and stupid. "I do believe my crucifixion before the public has about reached its limit." ---- Admiral Husband E. Kimmel Leigh Kimmel -- writer, artist and historian kimmel@siu.edu http://members.tripod.com/~kimmel/LHKwebpage.html keeper of the Sime~Gen mailing list, simegen-l@siu.edu Ask me how to order the new S~G novel!!! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 11:57:28 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg Subject: Attn ddraig Only -- [ From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg * EMC.Ver #3.0 ] -- Don: Been trying to email you privately - mail bounces "permanent error" or "fatal error". Eddress check: dddraig@primenet.com is that correct? Live Long and Prosper, Jacqueline Lichtenberg !!!!!!!Find out how to get the next Sime~Gen novel!!!!!!!! Visit The Zeor Site, click Directory, and you'll find how to sign up for the new novel. And there are five Sime~Gen fanzine novels now posted on The Zeor Site at http://www.j51.com/~zeor I reserve the right to repost any comment that comes to me that is NOT MARKED DNQ or in some way obviously personal. My SF Review Column is posted monthly at http://www.lightworks. com/MonthlyAspectarian Join the Sime~Gen Listserve or surf the Virtual Tecton starting at Tecton Central http://www.best.com/~shadorat/sg/sgfr.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 12:08:10 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Anne Pinzow Subject: Re: Star Trek in Practice--Nichelle Edith Keeler was a charachter in "City on the Edge of Forever" a Star Trek Episode. In the episode, which took place in 1930s New York (I belief) she ran a mission for the destitute of the city. She believed that one day people would travel to the stars and that there would be world peace. By accident her beliefs were adopted too soon resulting in the United States not being able to stop Hitler. Kirk, of course, fell in love with her yet, in order to keep the future the way it "should" be, (U.S. and allies defeating the axis powers) Kirk had to allow Edith to die. Anne ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 09:25:47 -0800 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Tony Zbaraschuk Subject: Re: Star Trek in Practice--Nichelle In-Reply-To: <970401054829_102763.1453_GHU33-1@CompuServe.COM> from "Joanne Schechter" at Apr 1, 97 00:48:29 am Leigh Kimmel wrote: >It makes me think of an incident that happened at Egyptian Campaign this >weekend. There's a local man who's mentally ill and whose mental illness >manifests through his fondness for sf and fantasy -- for instance, he >apparently thinks he's Dr. Who. Somebody said that "he's the sort of person >who gives fandom a bad name." Niven's Law: "There is no cause so noble that it will not attract fuggheads." That having been said, I would like to register a (somewhat) dissenting vote from what seems to be the general tenor of the list in re Mr. Nichols. While it is very good to see that Ms. Nichols is a dignified, responsible, intelligent person who respects the rights of others to make their own decisions, let us not forget that making one's own decisions does not mean that they are the _right_ decisions. Mr. Nichols may have been intelligent, but I don't particularly see any evidence of that in his joining a group that believed in suicidial woo-woo. (Then again, maybe I shouldn't throw stones. As a Christian, _I_ believe that the human race has been visited by an extraterrestrial being who will someday take all of his followers to a better world. Perhaps that's why I'm so annoyed about this whole affair -- as Chesterton said, "the hot needle of falsehood is never quite so painful as when it stabs near the nerve of truth." I've been annoyed both by the people who seem to be taking the Heaven's gate people as examples of "typical sci-fi idiocy" and those who tend to cite their beliefs as "variant Christianity" -- less of the latter, AFAIK, but I've seen them -- there is a point beyond which variance becomes something else entirely. And I'm annoyed by the Heaven's Gate folk taking the best news the world has ever heard, and mangling it into an excuse to kill themselves. And I'm annoyed by people who are so open-minded that they've let their brains fall out. And -- but enough ranting.) Tony Z ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 09:29:03 -0800 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Tony Zbaraschuk Subject: Re: Star Trek in Practice--Nichelle In-Reply-To: from "Leigh Kimmel" at Apr 1, 97 10:09:14 am > >NOT a cynic, would you believe? Call me Pollyanna--or Edith Keeler > >--but I think it *will* be commonplace someday. > > > Please excuse my ignorance, but who's Edith Keeler? I have a feeling that I > should recognize this name from someplace, but I'm drawing a blank. The 1930's nurse from the TOS episode "The City on the Edge of Forever", who was a peace activist who believed in the general good nature and perfectibility of humankind. In the alternate timeline that would have been created had she lived, she kept the U.S. out of WW II, leading to a Nazi victory and the destruction of at least the Federation if not the human race. Hence, Kirk had to let her die rather than save her from the auto accident in which she died, despite the fact that he was in love with her. Tony Z ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 14:31:52 EST Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Larry P Ulrey Subject: CONS:Minicon review Comments: To: thompson@in.net Last weekend I went to Minicon in Minneapolis. It was a long drive getting there, but it was a lot of fun. Last year they had about 3600 people. I'm not sure how many they had this year, but it was probably comparable. The main hotel was the Radisson. It was a very good hotel. There were a couple of annoyances, but no real problems. On Thursday night, the hotel was very warm. It was OK by Friday, however. Friday evening when I went to use the hot tub, it wasn't working right. It wasn't even as warm as bath water. However, they fixed it fairly quickly. So, overall, the hotel was fine. The main overflow hotel was the Sofitel. The other overflow hotel was the Holiday Inn. The con suite was, overall, one of the best I've seen. I seem to recall their having even more stuff put out last year, but it was still quite well-supplied. They served beer and Blog in the con suite. They're one of the increasingly fewer number of cons that still serve alcohol. They had a separate smoking area of the con suite set up. Basically, several of the pool side cabana rooms are set up as the con suite. They also had part of it set up as a coffee house called Dark Star. And they had another room set up as the entertainment are of Dark Star where they had live acts. And another room set up as "Quark's". It's obvious what that was like. The other rooms around the pool area (first and second floor) were reserved for people throwing parties. This was where most of the parties were going on, although there were some elsewhere also. The only problem was that on Sunday morning they ran out of donuts before I got up. Someone screwed up and put out most of the donuts Saturday night (although they were supposed to have been saved for Sunday morning), so they only had 5 boxes left to set out Sunday and they went quickly. The art show had a lot of interesting pieces, although I couldn't afford anything. The dealer's room had a very large variety of merchandize. It was rather crowded, however. This year there seemed to be a lot more traffic through the dealer's room when compared to last year. Maybe people were more interested in buying this year. They had filking going on both nights. However, there didn't seem to be that many filkers (especially when you consider the size of the con) when I stopped by, They also had a drum jam. It seemed to be fairly popular, at least as much so as the filk, probably more so. The masquerade started at 7pm which seemed a little early to me. Supper was a priority to me. When I got back, it was so crowded in the room that I skipped it. Eight would have been a better time. I did come back later to take pictures in the hall after the masquerade was over. There were several good costumes, but I missed some. They had a dance Saturday night. It was very well attended. However, in my opinion, the music selection could have been better. It was OK, but... Anyway, that's just my opinion. There were several tracks of programming going on most of the time. You could almost always find something interesting. Even though I've been to a lot of cons, there were several things I found interesting. So, unlike some cons, they have managed to keep programming interesting. The parties were lots of fun. There were lots of parties. There was even partying going on Thursday before the con officially started. This is definitely a party con. Overall, this is one of the best cons around. In spite of the few minor problems, or annoyances, or just things that could have been done better, it's still well worth going to. You should consider going if you can make it. Larry Ulrey ulrey@juno.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 17:17:27 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg Subject: Re: CONS:Minicon review -- [ From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg * EMC.Ver #3.0 ] -- Thank you Larry for the Minicon review. You write very good con reports. Either you're a veteran fanzine writer or you're a journalist by trade? Live Long and Prosper, Jacqueline Lichtenberg !!!!!!!Find out how to get the next Sime~Gen novel!!!!!!!! Visit The Zeor Site, click Directory, and you'll find how to sign up for the new novel. And there are five Sime~Gen fanzine novels now posted on The Zeor Site at http://www.j51.com/~zeor I reserve the right to repost any comment that comes to me that is NOT MARKED DNQ or in some way obviously personal. My SF Review Column is posted monthly at http://www.lightworks. com/MonthlyAspectarian Join the Sime~Gen Listserve or surf the Virtual Tecton starting at Tecton Central http://www.best.com/~shadorat/sg/sgfr.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 18:00:37 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Gloria Stover Subject: Edith Keeler Edith was in The City Beyond the Edge of Forever, Ellisons script. She was the social reformer Kirk fell in love with. Her death was necessary to return the time line to what we know. In one of the novels, Kirk named his boat after her. She is considered one of the only true loves of his. kiddykat ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 17:28:00 -0600 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jean Lorrah Subject: Re: literalism and figurative language Leigh writes, >One case was over the use of the expression "her head soared" to describe a >euphoric reaction -- they said that it sounded like the character's head >had popped off and was floating around in the air by itself. I'll admit >that perhaps that's a cliche' and hasn't graduated to the status of >idiomatic expression yet, but if that was their complaint, they should _say >so_. Taking it so literally only succeeds in making them look silly and >stupid. Ah, but the idiomatic expression that has been accepted--even though it makes no better sense--is "her _heart_ soared." I think hearing the phrase different by one word causes your readers to focus on the literal image, and envision those floating heads. It appears that you are making a pun. Jean Jean Lorrah A21711f@msumusik.mursuky.edu (alternate Jean1@Juno.com) http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3439/,http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4165/ "I don't think happiness is a permanent state; it's some kind of treaty you make with your circumstances at the time."--Robert Plant ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 17:48:18 -0600 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jean Lorrah Subject: literalism Meran writes, >I suppose the literally-minded have an empirical >religion? Human culture is full of sacred riddles and stories >that contain layers of meaning hidden in the multiple meanings >of key words. I get many literally-minded students who have been raised as fundamentalist Christians. They do not delight in layers of meaning--they were taught one meaning (the "true" meaning) for each well-known bit of scripture, and they CANNOT accept any other meaning even when it deepens and enriches the meaning they have been taught and does not contradict it in any way! Many of these young people are quite intelligent, and will diligently memorize and hand back empirical information. But they have no imaginations, and don't want any. Jean Jean Lorrah A21711f@msumusik.mursuky.edu (alternate Jean1@Juno.com) http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3439/,http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4165/ "I don't think happiness is a permanent state; it's some kind of treaty you make with your circumstances at the time."--Robert Plant ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 19:37:25 -0800 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Don and Sherri Subject: Re: Attn ddraig Only Comments: To: Jacqueline Lichtenberg In-Reply-To: <199704011658.LAA02837@j51.com> On Tue, 1 Apr 1997, Jacqueline Lichtenberg wrote: > -- [ From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg * EMC.Ver #3.0 ] -- > > Don: > > Been trying to email you privately - mail bounces "permanent error" or > "fatal error". > > Eddress check: > > dddraig@primenet.com > > is that correct? Nope, only two d's. Ddraig. :-) Follow Your Bliss!! Don ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ddraig@primenet.com "Life is not a problem to be solved, http://www.primenet.com/~ddraig/ but a _Mystery_ to be lived!" http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4102 -- Joseph Campbell ------Ask me how to get the NEXT Sime~Gen novel!!----- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 22:49:06 -0600 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jean Lorrah Subject: TECH: Websites Geocities allows as many websites as you have e-mail addresses. I have two. Juno allows as many e-mail accounts as the memory in your computer can handle. I have two--the two I use to maintain my two Geocities websites. My friend Lois has at least four Juno accounts, maybe more. If you live in a population center, Juno is totally free. Even where you have to pay toll to access, it's cheap--and once you've got your website running there is no reason to check your Juno account more than once a week. When I access before 8am (most of the time) it costs me from 7 to 10 cents. In the evening, although the toll rates are low again, the Juno connections are more crowded and it costs me from 12 to 25 cents. Juno is an e-mail system, no web access, IRC, or anything else. It works anywhere in the US, but will connect you with the entire world, just like any other e-mail server. It's PC only, no Mac or UNIX version at present. It requires 4MB of RAM and works with any modem over 2400, although it's better with 9600 or faster. To obtain free Juno software, call 1-800-654-JUNO. Geocities (http://www.geocities.com) gives 2MB per website, which will hold a huge amount of text and lots of small graphics. My fun and hobby site, complicated as it is and with a couple of very large graphics files, is about 1.2MB. You cannot sell anything from a Geocities free website, but you can provide information and links to sites where sales can be made. Eventually we can get a S~G commercial site at Geocities or elsewhere, and once we have something to sell, do all our sales through one commercial site. Meanwhile, anyone who wants to make and maintain a S~G website can use the e-mail address they already have to claim a free site at Geocities. When they outgrow that site, they can get a Juno account and open a second Geocities site, linking them together. Outgrow that, set up another Juno account and open a third site, etc. It's even possible for someone with a computer than can support a bunch of Juno accounts to collect messages for several other people and forward them. Geocities just gets friendlier and friendlier. It is now so easy to use their editing facility that you no longer hesitate to go in just to correct one typo or add a line somewhere and change the "Last updated on" notice to today's date. Uploading files is a snap. That's why Geocities just keeps growing and growing...and it is making a profit, unlike most Internet businesses. They took their profits from last fall and plowed them into more and faster phone connections, so it is easier to get in at all times of day. There are some great things that I have simply not found time to do--maybe this summer. I need to get into the Geocities banner and link programs, to bring more people to my sites. I need to investigate some of the other community stuff to draw more visitors. At any rate, as long as we are giving stuff away free, we can have as many websites at Geocities as there are fans willing to build them. A final note: There is now a completely free complete sf pro magazine, _Tomorrow SF_, at http://www.tomorrowsf.com/site_map.html. Check it out. Jean Jean Lorrah A21711f@msumusik.mursuky.edu (alternate Jean1@Juno.com) http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3439/,http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4165/ "I don't think happiness is a permanent state; it's some kind of treaty you make with your circumstances at the time."--Robert Plant ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 06:23:40 -0600 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jean Lorrah Subject: science poetry Here's an announcement that may be of interest to some of the writers on this list. I know several of you write the kind of poetry this e-zine is looking for. Jean The e'zine HMS Beagle (http://www.hmsbeagle.com/) is no longer accepting fiction. However, it IS "accepting submissions of science-oriented poetry. We aren't interested in overtly science fictional poetry (i.e., no aliens or mad scientists etc.). We pay $1/line, and prefer poems under 40 lines. Poems stay active on the site for a week or two and are then available in an archive for six months...Poems should be e-mailed to lusnyde@indiana.edu or sent to [HMS Beagle poetry editor] Lucy Snyder at Chemistry A620, Indiana University, Bloomington IN 47405." Jean Lorrah A21711f@msumusik.mursuky.edu (alternate Jean1@Juno.com) http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3439/,http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4165/ "I don't think happiness is a permanent state; it's some kind of treaty you make with your circumstances at the time."--Robert Plant ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 06:52:54 -0600 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jean Lorrah Subject: Growth on tv Jacqueline says, >a number of folks have posted TV >shows which are examples of character growth. Not one of those shows has >had a 25+ year run though. > That's because folks on this list don't have time to watch soap opera. Many such shows have lasted 20-30 years, and some character have literally grown old and died on them. In fact a soap always has two kinds of characters: a couple of favorites who never, never change, usually the male and female resident scheming villains, and numerous other people who, despite inane plots, do indeed grow and change over months and years. For primetime, Gunsmoke is the exception that proves the rule--there is always some anomaly out there that can be pointed to but never emulated, so it doesn't count. But for a top-10 primetime show that lasted 11 years and had characters growing and changing the entire run and never a drop in writing, acting, or ensemble quality, how has everyone managed to forget M*A*S*H? It broke every rule of half-hour tv comedy and was a monstrous success. Yes, Jacqueline, it can be done and _has_ been done. It is rare, but it is not impossible. Jean Jean Lorrah A21711f@msumusik.mursuky.edu (alternate Jean1@Juno.com) http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3439/,http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4165/ "I don't think happiness is a permanent state; it's some kind of treaty you make with your circumstances at the time."--Robert Plant ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 06:57:00 -0600 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jean Lorrah Subject: Nichelle Nichols Jacqueline, you keep saying this: >Gnawing on what Nichelle said and how and why it did not get picked up by >all the services and repeated for three days - that may provide the clue we >need. It's not true. It _did_ get picked up and repeated for three days. I have the tv on all the time. I _saw_ it over and over for those three days, on network after network, program after program. There are indeed times when even journalists are impressed by class. Jean Jean Lorrah A21711f@msumusik.mursuky.edu (alternate Jean1@Juno.com) http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3439/,http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4165/ "I don't think happiness is a permanent state; it's some kind of treaty you make with your circumstances at the time."--Robert Plant ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 09:03:30 EST Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Larry P Ulrey Subject: Re: CONS:Minicon review Jacqueline Lichtenberg wrote: >Thank you Larry for the Minicon review. You write very good con reports. >Either you're a veteran fanzine writer or you're a journalist by trade? Neither one actually, but thanks for the compliment. I just write what I remember about the con. Maybe someone else on the list can start writing con reports. I haven't seen any since I've been on. Larry Ulrey ulrey@juno.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 09:32:30 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Karen Litman Subject: Re: Growth on tv >Jacqueline says, >>a number of folks have posted TV >>shows which are examples of character growth. Not one of those shows has >>had a 25+ year run though. >>(Jean Wrote:) >That's because folks on this list don't have time to watch soap opera. Many >such shows have lasted 20-30 years, and some character have literally grown >old and died on them. In fact a soap always has two kinds of characters: a >couple of favorites who never, never change, usually the male and female >resident scheming villains, and numerous other people who, despite inane >plots, do indeed grow and change over months and years. > >For primetime, Gunsmoke is the exception that proves the rule--there is >always some anomaly out there that can be pointed to but never emulated, so >it doesn't count.-------------- Bonanza didn't have as long a run as Gunsmoke, but was around for some 15 years, and is still syndicated. Most of the Michael Landon produced/created shows had long runs -- Little House on the Prairie, Highway to Heaven...and especially in Little House, the characters grew older, had marriages, crises, births, etc. Little House, and Highway are still Bruce's favorites so I am familiar with them. -- Karen Litman > >But for a top-10 primetime show that lasted 11 years and had characters >growing and changing the entire run and never a drop in writing, acting, or >ensemble quality, how has everyone managed to forget M*A*S*H? It broke >every rule of half-hour tv comedy and was a monstrous success. -------- yes, but the spin off "After M*A*S*H" didn't make it. I think that one lasted less than 2 months -- Karen > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 09:59:48 -1758 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Leigh Kimmel Subject: Egyptian Campaign 1997 I had a very busy weekend helping with the annual fundraiser for the Science Fiction and Fantasy Society (SFFS -- Carbondale's local sf/fantasy fan club) at Egyptian Campaign, the local gaming convention. It was held at the Southern Illinois University Student Center, on the second floor. One important thing to understand is that Egyptian Campaign is _not_ a regular sf/fantasy convention.* You won't find panel discussions, a masquerade, filking, a con suite or room parties. What you will find is tables and tables of people playing games -- Magic and other card games, role-playing games, miniatures games, board games and other games you may never have heard of. There is a dealers' room, which concentrates primarily on gaming materials, although there were some books and costuming gear. There is a miniatures painting contest which also includes an art contest, but no regular art show with sales and an auction. If you're looking for a regular sf/fantasy convention, you will be gravely disappointed. However if you feel that gamers are treated like poor relations and nuisances underfoot at regular conventions, you will enjoy this convention. There are three entire days of solid gaming, with slots for games in the morning, afternoon and evening. This is an opportunity to play your favorite games with new opponents and to play new games that you may never have even heard of before. *This is why I was so concerned when I heard rumors of a group around here wanting to start a regular sf/fantasy convention here. I was afraid that they thought this would be no different from Egyptian Campaign and would steer straight onto the rocky shoals of disaster. However I think that those ideas have been pretty much put to rest, since I haven't heard anything else about those ideas lately. "I do believe my crucifixion before the public has about reached its limit." ---- Admiral Husband E. Kimmel Leigh Kimmel -- writer, artist and historian kimmel@siu.edu http://members.tripod.com/~kimmel/LHKwebpage.html keeper of the Sime~Gen mailing list, simegen-l@siu.edu Ask me how to order the new S~G novel!!! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 10:32:58 -1758 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Leigh Kimmel Subject: Re: Star Trek in Practice--Nichelle Everybody who sent me info on Edith Keeler -- thank you! As soon as it started pouring in, I remembered the whole episode, and how I just about cried when I saw it the first time, only I knew I didn't dare because I'd get berated for crying at something that was "only a story" so I had to cry inside (Like I did when I was reading Wouk's _War and Remembrance_ and got to the scene of Warren Henry's death while I was on the bus full of kids who would've belittled me for crying over a story). I had a feeling that it was something very poignant, but I couldn't remember the details. IIRC, "City on the Edge of Forever" was one of the best of the original Trek episodes. It sticks in my mind that it won the Hugo for best dramatic presentation, but my book from LAconIII which lists all the Hugo winners is buried in a box on the bottom of a stack. "I do believe my crucifixion before the public has about reached its limit." ---- Admiral Husband E. Kimmel Leigh Kimmel -- writer, artist and historian kimmel@siu.edu http://members.tripod.com/~kimmel/LHKwebpage.html keeper of the Sime~Gen mailing list, simegen-l@siu.edu Ask me how to order the new S~G novel!!! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 10:42:07 -1758 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Leigh Kimmel Subject: Re: CONS:Minicon review >They served beer and Blog in the con suite. >They're one of the increasingly fewer number of cons that still serve >alcohol. A lot of cons have been forced to quit serving alcohol because of liability issues. All it would take would be one idiot getting drunk and hurting him/herself or someone else and the lawsuits could easily wipe out the con for good. Also there is the potential problem of underage drinkers. In many states, serving an underage drinker is strict liability -- you cannot get out of trouble by pointing out that the person had a fake ID with a picture that looked better than the pictures on a lot of genuine ID's. And of course it's a lot cheaper not to serve alcohol, which means either cheaper membership prices or more other things for the same amount of membership. A lot of non-drinkers probably like that because then they don't feel they're paying for other people's beer bash. (Personally it doesn't bother me that much, since there are always a lot of other things at a given con that I don't attend but that my membership money helps pay for). "I do believe my crucifixion before the public has about reached its limit." ---- Admiral Husband E. Kimmel Leigh Kimmel -- writer, artist and historian kimmel@siu.edu http://members.tripod.com/~kimmel/LHKwebpage.html keeper of the Sime~Gen mailing list, simegen-l@siu.edu Ask me how to order the new S~G novel!!! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 11:02:28 -1758 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Leigh Kimmel Subject: Re: Star Trek in Practice--Nichelle >Leigh Kimmel wrote: > >>It makes me think of an incident that happened at Egyptian Campaign this >>weekend. There's a local man who's mentally ill and whose mental illness >>manifests through his fondness for sf and fantasy -- for instance, he >>apparently thinks he's Dr. Who. Somebody said that "he's the sort of person >>who gives fandom a bad name." > >Niven's Law: "There is no cause so noble that it will not attract fuggheads." > Of course -- but the big problem is when people see that sort of person and use them as an example of why they think that all fandom activities should be gotten rid of because they "destroy people's ability to distinguish between fantasy and reality" or somesuch. And there are a lot of people out there who think that fandom is a form of insanity. And yes, I've seen it. I've been at conventions where we had to share the hotel with mundanes because the con wasn't big enough to secure the entire hotel, and we had problems with people who thought that we had something seriously wrong with our heads. These people don't understand the central difference betweeen us and the poor nut who thinks he really is the Doctor from Dr. Who -- we know that we're just playing make-believe when we dress up and pretend like our favorite story worlds are real. For many of us it's a way of recharging our spiritual batteries and reminding ourself that it is all worth struggling for, so that we can return with renewed energy to the work of struggling for our dreams, of battling for improved launch vehicles now to keep the space program alive so that maybe our great-great-grandkids will be able to go to the stars, etc. (Come to think of it, maybe that's another reason why we bug a lot of people -- we actually think of the long term, and are willing to sacrifice now for things that will only come to fruitition long after we are gone). "I do believe my crucifixion before the public has about reached its limit." ---- Admiral Husband E. Kimmel Leigh Kimmel -- writer, artist and historian kimmel@siu.edu http://members.tripod.com/~kimmel/LHKwebpage.html keeper of the Sime~Gen mailing list, simegen-l@siu.edu Ask me how to order the new S~G novel!!! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 11:08:58 -1758 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Leigh Kimmel Subject: Re: Growth on tv >>For primetime, Gunsmoke is the exception that proves the rule--there is >>always some anomaly out there that can be pointed to but never emulated, so >>it doesn't count.-------------- Bonanza didn't have as long a run as >Gunsmoke, but was around for some 15 years, and is still syndicated. Most >of the Michael Landon produced/created shows had long runs -- Little House >on the Prairie, Highway to Heaven...and especially in Little House, the >characters grew older, had marriages, crises, births, etc. Little House, and >Highway are still Bruce's favorites so I am familiar with them. -- Karen >Litman >> "Eight Is Enough" also had the kids growing up -- I remember one of the girls winding up marrying the ballplayer whom she originally met in a very confrontative situation where she cut him down a couple notches for what she felt was his arrogance (apparently he then realized that he needed it and mended his ways). Of course I was a kid when I was watching it, so I may not have understood all of what was going on and my memories of what I saw are probably clouded by twenty years of intervening events. "I do believe my crucifixion before the public has about reached its limit." ---- Admiral Husband E. Kimmel Leigh Kimmel -- writer, artist and historian kimmel@siu.edu http://members.tripod.com/~kimmel/LHKwebpage.html keeper of the Sime~Gen mailing list, simegen-l@siu.edu Ask me how to order the new S~G novel!!! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 11:24:41 -1758 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Leigh Kimmel Subject: Re: literalism and figurative language >Ah, but the idiomatic expression that has been accepted--even though it >makes no better sense--is "her _heart_ soared." I think hearing the phrase >different by one word causes your readers to focus on the literal image, and >envision those floating heads. It appears that you are making a pun. Jean > That's interesting -- I could've sworn it was always "head." Maybe I grew up in an area where the idiom had shifted for some reason, or maybe I just heard it wrong when I learned it and then ever after my brain would automatically make the transposition so that I'd see/hear "head" no matter how plainly it was written/said "heart." Aren't brains fascinating things? "I do believe my crucifixion before the public has about reached its limit." ---- Admiral Husband E. Kimmel Leigh Kimmel -- writer, artist and historian kimmel@siu.edu http://members.tripod.com/~kimmel/LHKwebpage.html keeper of the Sime~Gen mailing list, simegen-l@siu.edu Ask me how to order the new S~G novel!!! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 09:16:50 -0800 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Robyn King-Nitschke Subject: Re: Growth on tv Leigh writes: > >> > "Eight Is Enough" also had the kids growing up -- I remember one of the > girls winding up marrying the ballplayer whom she originally met in a very > confrontative situation where she cut him down a couple notches for what > she felt was his arrogance (apparently he then realized that he needed it > and mended his ways). Of course I was a kid when I was watching it, so I > may not have understood all of what was going on and my memories of what I > saw are probably clouded by twenty years of intervening events. > I think "Highlander" is another example of a show with characters that grow. Duncan MacLeod has changed a lot since the early days with Tessa, and Richie, especially, has gone from being (IMO) an annoying kid to a much more complex and interesting character. Even Methos, the 5,000- year-old immortal, has changed some since we first met him. --Robyn ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 11:31:03 -1758 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Leigh Kimmel Subject: Re: TECH: Websites >Juno is an e-mail system, no web access, IRC, or anything else. It works >anywhere in the US, but will connect you with the entire world, just like >any other e-mail server. It's PC only, no Mac or UNIX version at present. That is a drawback for those of us who have Macs. >Geocities (http://www.geocities.com) gives 2MB per website, which will hold >a huge amount of text and lots of small graphics. My fun and hobby site, >complicated as it is and with a couple of very large graphics files, is >about 1.2MB. You cannot sell anything from a Geocities free website, but >you can provide information and links to sites where sales can be made. > My big Pearl Harbor bibliography, the other Navy-related pages, all the pictures and some other stuff don't even halfway fill up my website. I'm going to be adding a bunch of stuff to the bibliography once I get my term papers for this semester finished, but I doubt that will put me in danger of overrunning my space unless I add really big graphics. >Meanwhile, anyone who wants to make and maintain a S~G website can use the >e-mail address they already have to claim a free site at Geocities. When >they outgrow that site, they can get a Juno account and open a second >Geocities site, linking them together. Outgrow that, set up another Juno >account and open a third site, etc. > I actually have two websites (one on Tripod and the other on Geocities), but I have them put together so that a person could go from one to the other without ever realizing they're on two different servers unless one server were to go down. >A final note: There is now a completely free complete sf pro magazine, >_Tomorrow SF_, at http://www.tomorrowsf.com/site_map.html. Check it out. Jean > That will only be true for the first three issues. After that they're going to put some kind of tollbooth out so that you have to pay to read it. I don't know if there'll be teasers or samples out to draw people in, or how it'll work when it begins charging. "England expects every man to do his duty." ---- Admiral Lord Nelson Leigh Kimmel -- writer, artist and historian kimmel@siu.edu http://members.tripod.com/~kimmel/LHKwebpage.html keeper of the Sime~Gen mailing list, simegen-l@siu.edu Ask me how to order the new S~G novel!!! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 11:39:46 -1758 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Leigh Kimmel Subject: Re: Growth on tv >I think "Highlander" is another example of a show with characters that >grow. Duncan MacLeod has changed a lot since the early days with Tessa, >and Richie, especially, has gone from being (IMO) an annoying kid to >a much more complex and interesting character. Even Methos, the 5,000- >year-old immortal, has changed some since we first met him. > Of course it is sf/fantasy, so it may be a little different from mainstream shows. And if we aren't limiting ourselves to American shows, there used to be Dr. Who, which ran for 25 years and did have characters grow and change -- as long as all the writers used their heads and kept characterization of the various companions consistant, which they didn't always do. "I do believe my crucifixion before the public has about reached its limit." ---- Admiral Husband E. Kimmel Leigh Kimmel -- writer, artist and historian kimmel@siu.edu http://members.tripod.com/~kimmel/LHKwebpage.html keeper of the Sime~Gen mailing list, simegen-l@siu.edu Ask me how to order the new S~G novel!!! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 14:12:12 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Kaas Baichtal Subject: Re: Growth on tv Even the much-lambasted Hercules and Xena shows have growth of a sort. After all, Xena started out as a villain on Hercules, and became a heroine with her own show after experiencing a change of values. --Kaas ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 13:08:33 -0600 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jean Lorrah Subject: logic Karen writes, >>But for a top-10 primetime show that lasted 11 years and had characters >>growing and changing the entire run and never a drop in writing, acting, or >>ensemble quality, how has everyone managed to forget M*A*S*H? It broke >>every rule of half-hour tv comedy and was a monstrous success. -------- > yes, but the spin off "After M*A*S*H" didn't make it. I think that one >lasted less than 2 months -- Karen > But that was a different show with rotten writing. The fact that a bad show based on a good show failed in no way invalidates the achievement of the good show. I'm glad that Karen brought up Little House, though--it's another excellent example of a popular, successful, highly rated show that went on for years while the characters grew and changed. In a similar vein is the current Dr. Quinn. It doesn't matter that you don't like these shows with their solve-all-the-world's-problems-in-one-hour attitudes. Both of them have also had the main characters learn that they CAN'T always do that, and that is another kind of growth. Jean Jean Lorrah A21711f@msumusik.mursuky.edu (alternate Jean1@Juno.com) http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3439/,http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4165/ "I don't think happiness is a permanent state; it's some kind of treaty you make with your circumstances at the time."--Robert Plant ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 15:22:16 EST Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Larry P Ulrey Subject: Re: literalism and figurative language Leigh Kimmel wrote: >>Ah, but the idiomatic expression that has been accepted--even though it >>makes no better sense--is "her _heart_ soared." I think hearing the phase >>different by one word causes your readers to focus on the literal image, and >>envision those floating heads. It appears that you are making a pun. Jean >That's interesting -- I could've sworn it was always "head." Maybe I grew >up in an area where the idiom had shifted for some reason, Actually, I think I remember hearing it both ways; however, as I recall, "her _heart_ soared" was more common. Maybe there was some shifting of the idiom, or maybe I'm just remembering wrong. Larry Ulrey ulrey@juno.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 15:22:16 EST Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Larry P Ulrey Subject: Re: Egyptian Campaign 1997 Leigh Kimmel wrote: >I had a very busy weekend helping with the annual fundraiser for the >Science Fiction and Fantasy Society (SFFS -- Carbondale's local sf/fantasy >fan club) at Egyptian Campaign, the local gaming convention. It was held at >the Southern Illinois University Student Center, on the second floor. Good to see someone else doing con reports. Hope this will be the start of a trend. It's good to get different opinions of cons and it's a way to find out about cons we may never have been to. >*This is why I was so concerned when I heard rumors of a group around here >wanting to start a regular sf/fantasy convention here. I was afraid that >they thought this would be no different from Egyptian Campaign and would >steer straight onto the rocky shoals of disaster. Why do you think it would be a problem if there was a regular sf/fantasy con there? Since the Egyptian Campaign is a gaming con, a regular sf con should attract a different crowd. OK, some people would want to go to both, but if the Egyptian Campaign is in the spring, couldn't a reguler con be scheduled in the fall to avoid conflictly with it? Or do you think there isn't enough fen in your area for two cons? Larry Ulrey ulrey@juno.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 15:22:16 EST Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Larry P Ulrey Subject: Re: CONS:Minicon review Leigh Kimmel wrote: >A lot of cons have been forced to quit serving alcohol because of liability >issues. All it would take would be one idiot getting drunk and hurting >him/herself or someone else and the lawsuits could easily wipe out the con I understand all the reasons that cons are getting away from serving alcohol. Personally, it doesn't make that much difference to me. I'm not that much into beer; I'd rather have a good wine if I'm going to drink. But the fact that a con is serving alcohol will be a draw for some people. With there only being so many cons that someone can get to and other things being equal, they might just pick the one that serves alcohol over one that doesn't. Still, with all the liability issues, the trend is for fewer cons to continue to serve alcohol, so in time this may not matter. > (Personally it >doesn't bother me that much, since there are always a lot of other things >at a given con that I don't attend but that my membership money helps pay for). True. You can't expect to be interested in every single thing that's going on. But there's always so much going on, I don't have trouble finding things to do. Sometimes I'd almost have to be in two or three places at the same time to get to everything I'd like to. Larry Ulrey ulrey@juno.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 15:22:16 EST Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Larry P Ulrey Subject: Re: Star Trek in Practice--Nichelle Leigh Kimmel wrote: >>Niven's Law: "There is no cause so noble that it will not attract fuggheads." >> >And there are a lot of people out there who think that fandom is a form of insanity. >And yes, I've seen it. I've been at conventions where we had to share the >hotel with mundanes because the con wasn't big enough to secure the entire >hotel, and we had problems with people who thought that we had something >seriously wrong with our heads. Oh, yes, I've been at several cons like that. Anyone else out here who went to Draconis in Louisville about ten years ago? If you were, you know what that was like. Anne McCaffery was called a devil worshipper to her face. They had this high school basketball tournament going on then also. They were worse than we were, running around the halls drunk, making passes at the women. I know of two women who had these kids grab there breasts. The hotel wouldn't do a thing about them. Their coach and the cheerleader's chaperone couldn't be found. When the police were called in on one incident, at first they didn't even want to take a report. However, there happened to be a woman cop from Indianapolis there who told them who she was and that she knew that they at least had to take a report whether or not they ever did anything about it. The hotel was sued over this. It was settled, although the details of the settlement are secret. There was a filk song written about that con. Of course, usually the mundanes aren't that bad. They just think we're weird. Still, when the Shirner's shared the hotel with Inconjunction one year , there was no problem at all. We got along fine with them. I don't suppose there's much we can do to change the mundanes perception of us. >(Come to think of it, maybe that's another reason why we bug a lot of >people -- we actually think of the long term, and are willing to >sacrifice >now for things that will only come to fruitition long after we are >gone). That may have something to do with it. Larry Ulrey ulrey@juno.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 13:01:25 -0800 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Robyn King-Nitschke Subject: Re: Star Trek in Practice--Nichelle > also. They were worse than we were, running around the halls drunk, > making passes at the women. I know of two women who had these kids grab > there breasts. ...And these cretins...er...kids still have all their original equipment after this encounter? I guess SF con-goers are more forgiving than gamers. :) --Robyn (never make an inappropriate gesture at a woman carrying a sword!) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 16:36:58 EST Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Larry P Ulrey Subject: Re: Star Trek in Practice--Nichelle Robyn King-Nitschke wrote: >> also. They were worse than we were, running around the halls drunk, >> making passes at the women. I know of two women who had these kids grab >> there breasts. > >...And these cretins...er...kids still have all their original equipment >after this encounter? >I guess SF con-goers are more forgiving than gamers. :) Well, in one the one incident involving someone I know, the kid (or cretin) was lucky there was someone from con security to intervene. She knows enough about martial arts that she wouldn't have needed a sword. A little while after this happened, I came by and calmed her down. Larry Ulrey ulrey@juno.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 16:28:54 -0600 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jean Lorrah Subject: mundanes Leigh writes, >I've been at conventions where we had to share the >hotel with mundanes because the con wasn't big enough to secure the entire >hotel, and we had problems with people who thought that we had something >seriously wrong with our heads. Just get a copy of that old record, "The Shriner," and play it over the sound system. Jean Jean Lorrah A21711f@msumusik.mursuky.edu (alternate Jean1@Juno.com) http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3439/,http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4165/ "I don't think happiness is a permanent state; it's some kind of treaty you make with your circumstances at the time."--Robert Plant ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 18:05:48 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Colleen Bellairs Subject: Re: Star Trek in Practice--Nichelle In a message dated 97-04-02 12:52:00 EST, you write: << And yes, I've seen it. I've been at conventions where we had to share the hotel with mundanes because the con wasn't big enough to secure the entire hotel, and we had problems with people who thought that we had something seriously wrong with our heads. >> The really crazy thing is that more than a few of these folks would probably paint their faces blue and white or wear watermelons on their heads at the Superbowl (could they get tickets!). But they're unable to see the similarities between themselves and someone who likes to put on a Captain Kirk uniform a couple times a year. Colleen ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 18:16:38 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Colleen Bellairs Subject: Re: Growth on tv In a message dated 97-04-02 14:45:44 EST, you write: << Even the much-lambasted Hercules and Xena shows have growth of a sort. After all, Xena started out as a villain on Hercules, and became a heroine with her own show after experiencing a change of values. --Kaas >> (You know I'll always defend Xena! ) Actually, Xena's experienced a lot of growth over the past two seasons - this is one of the first shows I think of when I think of tv shows in which characters show personal growth. Xena has mellowed, developed a sense of humor, learned not to take herself completely seriously all the time. Even more than Xena, though, Gabrielle has grown. When the show first started she was just an annoying, chatty-Cathy sidekick; since then she's become a thoughtful, mature woman who can hold her own in a fight (verbal or physical), who can discern when to fight and when not to, someone who can offer advice to Xena when she needs it - yet who's learned to keep her mouth shut when talk is superfluous. (We've been on reruns for weeks; I can hardly wait for the next new ep.) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 21:11:00 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Deb Wunder Subject: logic Heya all -- And does anyone remember ONE DAY AT A TIME, in which several of the characters grew up, and the others did change as the series went on? Shade and Sweet Water, olias (deb) /**********************************************************/ /* Olias */ /* olias@nycmetro.com */ /* */ /* Sent from METRO ON-LINE */ /* Telnet: nycmetro.com Data: (212) 996-3664 */ /**********************************************************/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 01:09:38 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: "Hannah M.G. Shapero" Subject: Nichelle Nichols' message Simes and Gens: I am not so admiring of Nichelle Nichols for her "wonderful open-minded acceptance" of her brother's decision to die in a suicide cult. Maybe there was other stuff going on. Maybe her brother was a bum and she was trying to put a good spin on it. Maybe Nichelle believes some doctrine of "soul transformation" similar to the cult's. If it were someone I loved who was in a suicide cult, I would not be so serenely accepting of it. I would have tried everything to get the person out of it, and been devastated when the suicides happened. I don't believe that suicide is a good thing for a physically healthy person to do, unless the circumstances are extreme. The whole "Heaven's Gate" incident gives me nightmares. I don't respect their decision. They were brainwashed by a psychotic leader into destroying what I think is the only life we are ever going to have. I know many of you don't believe that, but I do, so I can only regard it as tragic and terrifying. Yours, HMGS ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 06:43:39 -0600 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jean Lorrah Subject: Nichelle Nichols' message Hannah writes, >I am not so admiring of Nichelle Nichols for her >"wonderful open-minded acceptance" of her brother's decision to die in a >suicide cult. Maybe there was other stuff going on. Maybe her brother was >a bum and she was trying to put a good spin on it. Maybe Nichelle believes >some doctrine of "soul transformation" similar to the cult's. If it were >someone I loved who was in a suicide cult, I would not be so serenely >accepting of it. I would have tried everything to get the person out of >it, and been devastated when the suicides happened. Hannah, her brother had been estranged from the family for twenty years. I'm sure that for a long time they did everything possible to get him out of the cult. Furthermore, _no one_ knew that after all that time it would become a suicide cult. It was never advertised as a suicide cult, and obviously was not originally formed as such. People who left Heaven's Gate in the past couple of years have been on the news saying that no, they did not expect the suicides. They left because one prophecy after another did not come true, and they became disillusioned--they did _not_ leave because they thought the group was headed for suicide. Jean Jean Lorrah A21711f@msumusik.mursuky.edu (alternate Jean1@Juno.com) http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3439/,http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4165/ "I don't think happiness is a permanent state; it's some kind of treaty you make with your circumstances at the time."--Robert Plant ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 09:31:23 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Anne Pinzow Subject: Re: Nichelle Nichols' message In a message dated 97-04-03 01:17:35 EST, Hannah wrote: I am not so admiring of Nichelle Nichols for her "wonderful open-minded acceptance" of her brother's decision to die in a suicide cult. Maybe there was other stuff going on. Maybe her brother was a bum and she was trying to put a good spin on it. Maybe Nichelle believes some doctrine of "soul transformation" similar to the cult's. If it were someone I loved who was in a suicide cult, I would not be so serenely accepting of it. I would have tried everything to get the person out of it, and been devastated when the suicides happened. Nichelle, I think, was expressing her belief that we all have a right to make our own decisions and follow up on them, no matter what the consequences to ourselves. However, from my own epistomology, though I do believe in reincarnation, I still think suicide, this suicide especially, was an atrocity. I've seen death, the kind of death when one might think there is a transformation. No, it wasn't any sort of a miracle. It was simply that the person had lead a full life, had done what he set out to do, reaped some of the benefit in the way of having a wish granted and then his body failed him and he died, naturally, litterly being held by the person he loved most in the world. That's a transformation, a completion and a sign I take as a soul truly going on to the "next level." Taking one's own life is just plain murder. I don't believe that suicide is a good thing for a physically healthy person to do, unless the circumstances are extreme. I agree. I can't help thinking that the person who originally faked the photo of the "Saturn Like Object" following the Hale-Bopp Comet, and Art Bell, should be brought up on charges. I don't think stupidity, crualty or the attempt to make someone else look foolish, is funny. This "prank" has now played out to the inevitable extreme of what can happen with any of these "pranks." However, as I understand it, Heaven's Gate took this "arrival" as a sign to do what they had been planning to do for over 20 years. I don't respect their decision. They were brainwashed by a psychotic leader The same can be said for many religions. What is the difference between a religion and a cult? Most politically correct religions do not demand that one give up one's family. However I have come in contact with sects within certain politically correct religions that demand that if one's family does not believe the same way as the sect, one must cut themselves off from it in order to be a member of the sect. To me, that is a power play and it is fear. However, we all have the right, First Amendment right, to believe any way we want to believe. It is amazing to me that while the first Europeans to come to this contentent were seeking religious freedom and property rights, the very first thing they did was to steal land from the natives while converting them to the "true" path and persecuted anybody who didn't believe as they did. So, in the light of what I just said, I am starting a new religion. We accept no donations (except to the building fund). Anybody who wants to join can, you don't have to give up anything and there is no such thing as a "higher level." There is only one credo, one commandment, one thing that we all must truly believe and accept as the ultimate purpose of all our lives. STOP FIGHTING AND CLEAN UP YOUR ROOM. Anne ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 07:10:42 -0800 Reply-To: torun@gte.net Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Torun Almer Organization: Starfire Subject: Stop Fighting and Clean up your room Anne Pinzow wrote: > So, in the light of what I just said, I am starting a new religion. We > accept no donations (except to the building fund). Anybody who wants to join > can, you don't have to give up anything and there is no such thing as a > "higher level." There is only one credo, one commandment, one thing that we > all must truly believe and accept as the ultimate purpose of all our lives. > > STOP FIGHTING AND CLEAN UP YOUR ROOM. > Dear Anne, Sign me up! I'm not much into organized religion and never have been. My relationship with a power greater then myself does not require any group validation or joint belief. However, I would certainly like to align myself with a group that doesn't care to fight and feels that it's important for each person to take care of their own personal affairs. I've heard it expressed as "tending to your own knitting." I can understand the feeling of acceptance that comes from belonging to an exclusive organization and I can appreciate the desire not to loose that acceptance. However, I don't grasp the notion that to be part of such an exclusive organization it would be necessary to give up a prior life. If the prior life is considered preparation for joining the group then I suppose nothing is actually given up, it's just left behind. There are just so many hours in a day and people have to decide how they want to spend their time and in so doing have to give up doing other things. I think prioritization is a good term. What comes to mind for women is joining a catholic religious order that requires seclusion and strange garb, which has only been modernized in the last 25 years. But those groups are usually designed to serve the community-at-large as well as the religious community, and promotes life, health and well-being even though there are strict rules of behavior for the members themselves. I simply have a difficult time understanding or feeling good about any organization, religious or otherwise, that brings harm to its members or is based on fear and intolerance. But I absolutely can relate to STOP FIGHTING AND CLEAN UP YOUR ROOM. Torun Torun@gte.net Registry of Householdings: http//home1.gte.net/torun/register.htm ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 07:18:12 -0800 Reply-To: torun@gte.net Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Torun Almer Organization: Starfire Subject: Leigh's costume Leigh Kimmel wrote: > I should have my picture up on the Web soon. At Egyptian Campaign (local > gaming event -- will have report soon) I bought a used costume and the lady > I bought it from took pictures to use in her advertising. Take a look at > http://home1.gte.net/eeboyd or > http://www.showme.missouri.edu/~ccnowlin/boyd. I'm not sure which one > she'll put it on, but it should be up in a week or two. Dear Leigh, Got through to http://home1.gte.net/eeboyd but my system couldn't find the server at http://www.showme.missouri.edu/~ccnowlin/boyd. Do I have the correct address? Torun Torun@gte.net Registry of Householdings: http://home1.gte.net/torun/register.htm ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 09:16:13 -0800 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Mary Mendum Subject: Re: Nichelle Nichols' message In-Reply-To: <970403093123_-535228711@emout10.mail.aol.com> > The same can be said for many religions. What is the difference between a > religion and a cult? Most politically correct religions do not demand that > one give up one's family. However I have come in contact with sects within > certain politically correct religions that demand that if one's family does > not believe the same way as the sect, one must cut themselves off from it in > order to be a member of the sect. To me, that is a power play and it is > fear. A useful working definition for a religion is a cult which has survived a generation or two beyond the death of its founder. All religions with documented foundings appear to have started as cults following a charismatic leader. And when a religion becomes large enough to spawn denominations, they frequently begin the same way. The majority of such cults aren't suicidal and self-destructive, nor do they necessarily use any more "brainwashing" than some mainline denominations. Alianation from family isn't a good distinguishing characteristic, either. There are plenty of instances where differences in religion between family members causes estrangement, even when both religions are considered "mainline" denominations. All it takes is one person who refuses to accept the situation, and the others will avoid him/her rather than be proselytized every time they try to have a conversation. That unaccepting person doesn't have to be the one who joined the cult. Of course, cults (by my definition) are small and relatively new belief systems. Most of their members will be very enthusiastic recent converts, and many will be the only family member belonging to the cult. So, the probability of estrangement from family is very high even if the cult does nothing at all to encourage it. > However, we all have the right, First Amendment right, to believe any way we > want to believe. And this is what Nicelle Nichols was expressing: a deeply held conviction that the freedom to make ones own decisions about religion is so important that it's worth allowing people to make bad, self-destructive choices. That doesn't mean she approved of her brother's choice, or that she doesn't think he was stupid to allow himself to be brainwashed into suicide. (And yes, in the context of a cult as opposed to, say, a prisoner of war, one can't be effectively brainwashed without some active cooporation.) It doesn't mean she isn't angry and sad at the waste of his life. However, I have to admire her for being willing to live by her principles, even when her family has become one of the tiny minority who are hurt by them, instead of helped. And estrangement or not, she could hardly have expressed her love for her brother in a more meaningful way than she did, by accepting his choices, even the wrong ones, as part of who and what he was. Mary Lou ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 07:16:05 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Karen Litman Subject: Re: Stop Fighting and Clean up your room Hello Everyone; Anne. Mary Lou and Torun seem to have put an interesting and realistic spin on the Heaven's Gate situation. You can sign me up to for the "Stop Fighting and Clean Up your Room" cause. Sounds good to me. I suspect the "building fund" would be a building for all of us to include the stuff we're shoveling out of the rooms but need to store it somewhere. I'd have a problem here. Our house is so small, no matter how clean I try to keep it, it probably wouldn't pass muster...and we already rent a storage place!! But if it's a "do the best you can" then I'm all for it. -- Karen Litman ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 09:21:28 -1758 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Leigh Kimmel Subject: Re: Cults (was Nichelle Nichols' message) >The same can be said for many religions. What is the difference between a >religion and a cult? Most politically correct religions do not demand that >one give up one's family. However I have come in contact with sects within >certain politically correct religions that demand that if one's family does >not believe the same way as the sect, one must cut themselves off from it in >order to be a member of the sect. To me, that is a power play and it is >fear. > While I was on the Web looking for information on this, I saw a lot of stuff about cult awareness. Some of it was very good, but there was one called "spiritual counterfeits" or something similar which really bothered me. I suspect it was done by a very conservative Christian group, since it scored everything in terms of doctrinal correctness (with their group's views being the most "correct") rather than looking at issues like mind-control, idolization of the living leader, responsibility to higher authority, etc. However there was another one that was a very good, reasonable discussion of the differences between harmless new religions/splinter sects and dangerous mind-control or doomsday cults that lead people to self-destructive behaviors. All of these can be found by going to the CNN site at http://www.cnn.com and then following their list of links under the news about Heaven's Gate. "I do believe my crucifixion before the public has about reached its limit." ---- Admiral Husband E. Kimmel Leigh Kimmel -- writer, artist and historian kimmel@siu.edu http://members.tripod.com/~kimmel/LHKwebpage.html keeper of the Sime~Gen mailing list, simegen-l@siu.edu Ask me how to order the new S~G novel!!! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 09:21:35 -1758 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Leigh Kimmel Subject: Re: Star Trek in Practice--Nichelle >her face. They had this high school basketball tournament going on then >also. They were worse than we were, running around the halls drunk, >making passes at the women. I know of two women who had these kids grab >there breasts. The hotel wouldn't do a thing about them. Their coach At Duckon IV there were some problems, altho I didn't see any of them -- just heard about them afterward. This was when Duckon was still small and didn't sell out the hotel. Security was all worried because a group of skinheads had some rooms and were going to go to a rally somewhere in the Chicago area. I was in one of the dealers' rooms (at that con the dealers had their shops in their hotel rooms all on one specific floor, rather than a central room) when one of the security people came by to tell the dealer what to do if there was any trouble. However the skins weren't any trouble -- they just went to their rally and did all their hating there and then came back and stayed out of the way. However the problems came from a different group -- apparently some athletic team from a parochial school, altho I've heard different accounts. They got drunk and disorderly, tried to swim in the lobby fountain and then went up to gatecrash some of the parties. >hotel was sued over this. It was settled, although the details of the >settlement are secret. There was a filk song written about that con. I wonder if I've ever heard that song. It certainly sounds interesting. "I do believe my crucifixion before the public has about reached its limit." ---- Admiral Husband E. Kimmel Leigh Kimmel -- writer, artist and historian kimmel@siu.edu http://members.tripod.com/~kimmel/LHKwebpage.html keeper of the Sime~Gen mailing list, simegen-l@siu.edu Ask me how to order the new S~G novel!!! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 09:21:42 -1758 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Leigh Kimmel Subject: Re: Egyptian Campaign 1997 >>*This is why I was so concerned when I heard rumors of a group around >here >>wanting to start a regular sf/fantasy convention here. I was afraid that > >>they thought this would be no different from Egyptian Campaign and would > >>steer straight onto the rocky shoals of disaster. > > Why do you think it would be a problem if there was a regular >sf/fantasy con there? Since the Egyptian Campaign is a gaming con, a >regular sf con should attract a different crowd. OK, some people would >want to go to both, but if the Egyptian Campaign is in the spring, >couldn't a reguler con be scheduled in the fall to avoid conflictly with >it? Or do you think there isn't enough fen in your area for two cons? > Apparently I didn't make myself clear on this -- my concern was that the people who were talking about the possibility of a regular sf/fantasy con had no idea of just how different a regular con is from a gaming con and therefore would proceed to produce something that would not appeal to its intended audience and thus would be a disastrous flop -- with the potential of the people involved getting seriously burned financially if the con lost a lot of money simply because it didn't cover the basic things of a sf/fantasy con and in effect just produced another gaming con. "I do believe my crucifixion before the public has about reached its limit." ---- Admiral Husband E. Kimmel Leigh Kimmel -- writer, artist and historian kimmel@siu.edu http://members.tripod.com/~kimmel/LHKwebpage.html keeper of the Sime~Gen mailing list, simegen-l@siu.edu Ask me how to order the new S~G novel!!! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 08:39:58 -0800 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Tony Zbaraschuk Subject: Re: Stop Fighting and Clean up your room In-Reply-To: <970404071602_450471424@emout05.mail.aol.com> from "Karen Litman" at Apr 4, 97 07:16:05 am I'll join the "Stop Fighting and Clean Up Your Room" sect. (There is, of course, a lot more that needs to be done, but it _is_ a good start.) Tony Z ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 13:47:48 EST Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Larry P Ulrey Subject: Re: Egyptian Campaign 1997 Leigh Kimmel wrote: >Apparently I didn't make myself clear on this -- my concern was that the >people who were talking about the possibility of a regular sf/fantasy con >had no idea of just how different a regular con is from a gaming con and >therefore would proceed to produce something that would not appeal to its >intended audience and thus would be a disastrous flop I didn't understand you originally. I thought you were saying that the competition from a regular sf/fantasy con would hurt the gaming con. Thanks for clarifying. Larry Ulrey ulrey@juno.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 14:14:37 EST Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Larry P Ulrey Subject: Re: Star Trek in Practice--Nichelle Leigh Kimmel wrote: >At Duckon IV there were some problems, altho I didn't see any of them -- >just heard about them afterward. I remember. I think that was the first Duckon I had attended. I didn't see the problems there firsthand either. >>hotel was sued over this. It was settled, although the details of the >>settlement are secret. There was a filk song written about that con. > >I wonder if I've ever heard that song. It certainly sounds >interesting. The title of the song was "Clay County Basketball Berserkers". I have no idea where in Kentucky Clay County is. Anyway, I don't remember much of it (and my memory of the exact words could be off a little), but part that I do remember is: They were dirty and hairy and full of fleas. Their hands hung down below their knees. The Clay County Basketball Berserkers. Ok, so I don't remember much. It's been awhile since I've heard it. Larry Ulrey ulrey@juno.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 15:08:48 +0000 Reply-To: jmacdon4@moose.ncia.net Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "James D. Macdonald" Subject: TECH: Reading Own Messages For some reason the letters I send to the list don't seem to be coming back to me, so I don't know if they posted or not. Jim James D. Macdonald http://www.sff.net/people/doylemacdonald/ Author (with Debra Doyle) of JUDGMENT NIGHT ISBN 0-425-14728-2 $3.99 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 20:30:03 EST Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Joanne Schechter <102763.1453@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Re: Nichelle Nichols > >Gnawing on what Nichelle said and how and why it did not get picked up by > >all the services and repeated for three days - that may provide the clue we > >need. > > > It's not true. It _did_ get picked up and repeated for three days. I have > the tv on all the time. I _saw_ it over and over for those three days, on > network after network, program after program. > > There are indeed times when even journalists are impressed by class. Jean Gee, it was on that much and I missed it? Darn! Jean, are you sure it was Nichelle's class that made them show it again and again? Could it have been that because she is a celebrity, and so many people feel they "know" her, the interview helped to personalize a tragic event that was otherwise something that happened to "someone else?" Whatever the motivation, I'm glad to hear that the interview was broadcast. Joanne Schechter ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 20:32:05 EST Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Joanne Schechter <102763.1453@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Re: Growth on TV Jean wrote: >That's because folks on this list don't have time to watch soap opera. I'm not sure it's a question of time. I have never been able to get into a soap opera. They all seem inane to me, and have always seemed that way. Even when I was a kid, was home sick from school for a week and had nothing else to do, you couldn't get me to watch one of those things. Even during the early months after my daughter was born and she nursed for hours on end, while I watched television because she wouldn't let me hold a book. I just couldn't. I'd rather watch QVC for an hour than a soap opera. I just don't get it. However, since he retired from teaching, my dad has become a soap fan. I find this incredible: You see, for years he teased me unmercifully about my love for Star Trek and other science fiction--and still teases whenever it occurs to him! And he instigated more teasing from others at every opportunity. Yet he thinks there's nothing odd--or similar--in his needing to watch *All My Children* every day. To me, it's a terrible irony--terrible because I'm the only one who seems to notice it. And because the "teasing," which started when I was about 12, hurt. What makes something like a soap opera acceptable to so many people, but SF weird? That reminds me: Something I've noticed about the difference between the fans of the original Trek and those who grew up with Next Gen and later permutations is that many neofen proudly refer to themselves as "Trekkies." It amazes me that they don't seem to realize it was a derogatory term applied to us by people who didn't understand. (If you must label me) call me a TrekkER Joanne Schechter ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 08:34:58 +0000 Reply-To: jmacdon4@moose.ncia.net Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "James D. Macdonald" Subject: WORK: Did it post? Okay, I'm now reading my own posts. But I have a question: While I've gotten feedback for my posting of WORK: The Selling Outline Pt. II, I haven't heard from anyone about WORK: The Selling Outline Pt. I. Did it post? Jim James D. Macdonald http://www.sff.net/people/doylemacdonald/ Author (with Debra Doyle) of THE GATHERING FLAME ISBN 0-812-53495-6. $5.99 Locus bestseller, September 1995 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 10:22:11 EST Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Lynda M Tatad Subject: Re: Growth on TV > >That reminds me: Something I've noticed about the difference between >the fans of >the original Trek and those who grew up with Next Gen and later >permutations is >that many neofen proudly refer to themselves as "Trekkies." It amazes >me that >they don't seem to realize it was a derogatory term applied to us by >people who >didn't understand. > >(If you must label me) call me a TrekkER >Joanne Schechter > The neofen of Star Trek do NOT know it was originally a derogatory term. At the same time, I worked in a salon that changed owners a couple of years ago. The new owner was a local black sports figure who bought it with and for his wife. Friends of there's were partners with them. Black and other ethnic hairstylists were hired, and a few of us stayed to give the new owners a chance. I lasted a year, only because MY clients needs weren't being met by inventory (both retail products as well as needed supplies like color and perms) not being renewed when it was necessary. The experience working with ethnic hairstylists and their clients was fun and educational. In real life, and REEL life, it is okay for blacks to refer to each other as "nigger", a derogatory term that should not be used by anyone else in reference. I'm sorry you were teased for loving Star Trek, sometimes I get teased, but NOT by my family. My parents raised me on classic Star Trek, and I was happy to find a husband who is a fellow fan. I don't understand why some people have to belittle others for liking something different from their interests. It must be a power thing, to make you feel as if there's something wrong with you for liking Star Trek. Also, to me: a Trekkie sounds like a term for a Star Trek fan. A TrekkER sounds like one doing the trekking! :-) Live long and prosper! Lynda ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 11:58:40 -1758 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Leigh Kimmel Subject: Re: Star Trek in Practice--Nichelle >have no idea where in Kentucky Clay County is. Anyway, I don't remember I looked it up in my road atlas, and according to that, it's in southestern Kentucky, by the Daniel Boone National Forest. It's probably in the foothills of the Appalachians, but I couldn't tell for sure. "I do believe my crucifixion before the public has about reached its limit." ---- Admiral Husband E. Kimmel Leigh Kimmel -- writer, artist and historian kimmel@siu.edu http://members.tripod.com/~kimmel/LHKwebpage.html keeper of the Sime~Gen mailing list, simegen-l@siu.edu Ask me how to order the new S~G novel!!! ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 13:05:15 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Anne Pinzow Subject: Witch hunt given old meaning. Saw this and thought the list would be interested. April 5, 1997 In Modern Russia, a Fatal Medieval Witch Hunt By MICHAEL SPECTER TEREKHOVO, Russia -- There is really no mystery about what happened in this forgotten little village on the night of Feb. 22. Sasha Lebyodkin and his terrified nephew, Sergei Gretsov, went on a witch hunt. Armed with hammers and knives, they entered the house of the woman who they said had cast a spell on them and started swinging. When they were done one woman was dead -- the first murder here since the Revolution -- and four of her five children were on their way to the hospital. The 22-year-old woman whose life they were after, Tanya Tarasova, suffered several hammer blows to the head, but survived. Saying they were spooked by wild, half-human beasts and dogged by incantations that set their eyes on fire, the killers were not reluctant to admit what they had done. And with mysticism and sorcery a pervasive fact of modern Russian life, the other residents of this village on the border with Ukraine weren't a bit surprised. "We went there to kill the entire family," the two men said in a joint statement the next day. "Because Tanya has used her black magic and sent ruination upon us." So far the only legal proceeding to arise from the attack has come from Lebyodkin's wife, Larissa, who has sued Miss Tarasova, for "putting a hex on my husband and destroying him," she said. She has also requested that the police confiscate a book called "Black Magic" that was found in the house on the night of the attack. "This would all be meaningless," said Gennadi Chekaldin, the police officer who has been given the unpleasant task of trying to "solve" the crime. "But you can't find anyone here to tell you that witchcraft wasn't involved in this killing. In fact, you can go anywhere in Russia these days and witchcraft is a daily part of life." At times Russia seems governed as much by superstition as by democracy. One of Moscow's, and the nation's, most popular weekly television programs, "The Third Eye," whose engaging host is Mikhail Andreyev, the president of the Association of White Magicians, is a straight, factual discussion of how sorcery and witchcraft can improve one's daily life. (Last week's show featured a lesson in how to "protect your house with the aid of an ordinary needle, and how to use a big tailor's needle to cast special spells.") Major national newspapers advertise the services of clairvoyants, witches and warlocks every day. Well-trained doctors at respected hospitals see nothing unusual in recommending that their patients take a trip to a "babka," an old woman with the power to heal. Until late last year, Gen. Georgi Rogozin was in charge of a team of Kremlin staff astrologers whose sole job was to help guide President Boris Yeltsin in making decisions. "We have had in this country a very long period of total absence of spiritual education, and people completely forget what religion really means," said the Rev. Alexander Bulekov, from the Moscow patriarchate of the Russian Orthodox Church, explaining the power of pagan beliefs for Russians. "People have lost their spiritual immunity to resist evil. They have become confused and they often have trouble knowing what is good and bad." Asked if beliefs in witchcraft were more prevalent in remote, rural areas, Bulekov said no. "We witness it far more often in the cities," he said. "In villages the old attitudes toward the church are still alive and immunity against evil is better preserved." Still, the story of the Terekhovo witch hunt is a tale out of the Middle Ages. A web of lies, competing spells and dueling witches, it is a story that even people who have lived through it find hard to believe and harder to tell. Tanya Tarasova was a young woman who kept to herself in a village of only 100 people. That was suspicion No. 1. She has a lazy eye, a common enough problem, but one often viewed as a sign of the demon to those devoted to pagan beliefs. She was remote -- and most damning, often took long, solitary walks in the woods. After she had a few dates with Sergei Gretsov, a local woodcutter, he started to have horrible visions. His mother said Miss Tarasova had put a curse on Sergei because he would not marry her. "He would wake up in the night screaming and afraid," his mother, Galina Gretsov, said in an interview. "Every day it would get worse. He said he saw her face on the head of a beast with enormous horns. He would sweat and scream and beg me to look at the beast. Of course I never saw it. But Sergei was always a normal healthy boy. Until he met her." Sergei sought the aid of his uncle, Sasha, who said he also came under Tanya's spell. Prompted by his wife, Larissa -- a 36-year-old woman deeply anxious about her inability to have children -- the three took the hourlong bus ride to see Maria Pashenko, 70, the region's most respected babka. "The young one told me he was haunted by a beast and that whenever he went to the forest the beast was there," Mrs. Pashenko said in an interview in which she abruptly pulled a large silver cross from her bedcovers and began casting a "good" spell on the people in the room. "He said he wanted to get married but the evil eye was on him and that the beast had prevented him from going back near the girl." Only one clear fact has emerged from the crimes: The lives of half a dozen people have been ruined over the belief in magic. Miss Tarasova, interviewed in the hospital where she is recuperating from the attack, denies being a witch. She said she never wants to return to her village and she cannot understand why a young man she liked would try to kill her. Her uncle, Stepan Kopilov, is 70. He has lived through the Bolsheviks and the hunger of farm collectivization. He has lived through the painful upheavals of Yeltsin's reform program -- which have been felt with particular harshness in this agricultural region. But he has never seen anything as agonizing as this. "These men killed my sister," he said, standing in the house where Tanya's mother, Raisa Tarasova, died. "They talk of black magic and horrible spells. She was a decent woman who worked every living day. These men are the ones who are evil." The police do not know what to make of the crime. "We can't just tell everyone in this town that magic is nonsense," Chekaldin said, even though it is clear that he would like to. "But we have to bring justice." The two men who committed the crimes are now being held in the nearby city of Kursk, where they have been examined by psychiatrists, who have yet to issue a final report on them. Mrs. Pashenko, the babka, swears that while she can recognize the "evil eye," she never uses it. "I cast only good spells, I cure people and help them with my special waters," she said. "I never use the evil eye." She said she had nothing to do with the attack -- although she acknowledges that the two men and Mrs. Lebyodkin came to her after it. "Larissa was sitting here, and I asked what happened," she said, making it clear by her facial gestures that Mrs. Lebyodkin was in deep distress. "She was scared but she could not speak. I had to put her eyes and her nose and her mouth back in their right places. I used special waters. I asked what happened but nobody could speak. They just said nothing." Copyright 1997 The New York Times ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 16:02:44 -0600 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jean Lorrah Subject: Future of Online Bookselling Here's an article posted by someone on my electronic books mailing list. It's of interest to all of us, too, even if the author doesn't know that Isaac Asimov is dead. Jean > >ONLINE RETAILING: WEB BROWSING > >THERE is a familiar irony to the way retailing is developing on the >Internet. Just as the computerised "paperless office" has turned out to >be a voracious gobbler of trees, so the world of virtual words is >proving a warm friend to that most tangible of literary technologies, >the book. > >Among the few kinds of business to do well so far on the World Wide Web, >bookselling stands out. Amazon.com, an on-line bookseller based in >Seattle, soon to float on the stockmarket, is one of the largest retail >businesses on the Net, taking about $16m of the $500m total revenues >collected by electronic retailers last year, although it made a loss of >$4.7m in the second half of 1996. > > Amazon sells only in cyberspace, but it is now being joined there >by invaders from the material world whose turnover makes any purely >Internet business look puny. Barnes & Noble, based in New York, is the >biggest bookseller in the world, with pre-tax profits in 1996 of $81.4m >on sales of $2.45 billion. It opened for electronic business on March >18th, selling through America Online (AOL), a network with 8.5m >subscribers. >Borders, another slightly hipper superstore, based in Ann Arbor, >Michigan, which made pre-tax profits of $96.1m on sales of $1.96 >billion, promises to start selling books on-line later this year. > >So is Amazon's sunny childhood about to come to an abrupt end? Barnes & >Noble and Borders do have some advantages--widely recognised names for >one thing, opportunities to publicise their websites in their bookshops >for another. And Barnes & Noble's exclusive deal with AOL gives it >privileged access to much of the potential market. But the mechanics of >selling books on-line look different from those of setting up a bookshop >in the shopping mall. > >Amazon's star has risen so fast (its sales have doubled each quarter) >for the simple reason that it usually offers a good service. In part, >this is because it has the customary skills of the nimble niche player: >it is often quicker to spot trends than the big bookstores (let alone >the notoriously inefficient book publishers); it also makes more effort >to engage its customers (with on-line interviews, reviews >and so on). > > This was perhaps to be expected. However, Amazon has also managed >to match the big chains, book for book, in three crucial areas not >thought of as niche skills: convenience, range and price. > >Amazon claims to offer 2.5m titles, which computer users can search >through 24 hours a day, then order, often at a discount to the >publishers' prices, and have delivered in as little as two days. It >keeps fewer than 1,000 titles--just the best-sellers--in its own >warehouse; but it is situated near one of the warehouses of Ingram Book >Company, the largest wholesaler of books in the world with 400,000 >titles >on hand. Ingram provided 59% of the books Amazon sold in 1996. > > Its closeness to Ingram puts Amazon on an even footing with Barnes >& Noble and Borders. The big chains' distribution systems, so effective >in stocking superstores in malls, are of little advantage in cyberspace. >But it does not give Amazon any advantage over other on-line retailers, >who by also using Ingram immediately have access to a similar range of >books. Already a couple of on-line firms, Bookstacks and Bookserve (set >up by the sons of a former Ingram boss), are hot on Amazon's >heels--though they are not as well known. > > However, the biggest threat to Amazon may come from another kind of >on-line bookseller that caters to a specialist audience. Already there >are specialist on-line booksellers such as Pandora's Books, which sells >out-of-print science fiction and mysteries; such sites offer far more >expertise in their subject than a general bookseller like Amazon ever >could. Soon they could well be joined by lots of other sites devoted to >enthusiasts that currently do not sell books--but which might offer them >as one of a range of products for people interested in science fiction, >gardening or whatever. > > Ingram, through its newly established Internet Support Service, >will set up such websites on a would-be retailer's behalf for $2,500. >The sites will be linked to the Ingram warehouse system, so that an >order received through a specialist website would be sent out without >the "retailer" ever touching it (and the retailer would get a cut of up >to 20% of the price). Worse from Amazon's point of view, science-fiction >buffs might be tempted to order other sorts of books from Ingram's >general list at the same time as they pick up the latest Asimov. > > Amazon is defending itself against such a threat already. Its >associates' programme operates a similar system to Ingram's proposed one >with a smaller commission of 8%, but no up-front fee. Meanwhile, as Mike >Shatzkin, a consultant with the Idea Logical Company in New York, points >out, Ingram and the other book wholesalers also have something to fear >from the Internet. One day, consumers may just download "books" by >computer--and print them out at home. >----------------------------------------------------------- >Thanks for using EBOOK-List, Discussion on Electronic Books >Post Message: ebook-list@aros.net >Get Commands: majordomo@aros.net "help" >Administrator: noring@netcom.com >Unsubscribe: majordomo@aros.net "unsubscribe ebook-list" > Jean Lorrah A21711f@msumusik.mursuky.edu (alternate Jean1@Juno.com) http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3439/,http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4165/ "I don't think happiness is a permanent state; it's some kind of treaty you make with your circumstances at the time."--Robert Plant ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 07:51:04 -0700 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Mary Mendum Subject: GOSS: moving In-Reply-To: Folks, I am sitting here amidst piles of boxes, trying to ignore how much stuff STILL isn't in them. I put in a hard day yesterday, and _almost_ got my books packed. I'm now at that stage where no task has been completed, although most have been started, and so I feel like I've accomplished nothing. The movers arrive tomorrow at eight--which is really seven, since Daylight Savings Time came in this morning. I am supposed to have email at ucdavis until the end of April, but my ability to access it in Santa Rosa may be erratic. I say "supposed" to have email, because I haven't gotten any in the last 24 hours or so. Has everyone been busy, or have the UCD computer folks gotten it wrong and cut me off a month early? If any of you have a moment, could you drop me a quick note, so I can determine if my email is still functioning? Thanks, Mary Lou ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 11:25:48 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Anne Pinzow Subject: Re: GOSS: moving I'm reading you loud and clear. Just been up to my tush in alligators. Anne ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 11:03:27 -1758 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Leigh Kimmel Subject: Re: GOSS: moving >Folks, > >I am sitting here amidst piles of boxes, trying to ignore how much stuff >STILL isn't in them. I put in a hard day yesterday, and _almost_ got my >books packed. I'm now at that stage where no task has been completed, >although most have been started, and so I feel like I've accomplished >nothing. > The joys of moving -- they sound so painfully familiar. When I moved to SIU last August, I'd intended to have everything packed and ready to go on Saturday when my parents showed up to get me moved out. As it happened, I still had a number of items that needed packing, so my brothers and I quick got them finished. So we didn't get on the road until afternoon, when I'd hoped to get an early start. "I do believe my crucifixion before the public has about reached its limit." ---- Admiral Husband E. Kimmel Leigh Kimmel -- writer, artist and historian kimmel@siu.edu http://members.tripod.com/~kimmel/LHKwebpage.html keeper of the Sime~Gen mailing list, simegen-l@siu.edu Ask me how to order the new S~G novel!!! ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 12:11:23 -0700 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Mary Mendum Subject: Re: GOSS: moving In-Reply-To: Thanks to everyone who dropped me a note--it turns out my email is still working, so I don't have THAT snarl to cope with tomorrow! I just finished packing the first room--only the bathroom, but that's a start. Of course, I haven't really _started_ on the kitchen, and it's already lunchtime. I haven't managed to clear a single closet, though three of them are pretty close. Oh, well. I keep telling myself that after the past month (and year), starting a new job in a new city will be a piece of cake. I spent last week in the library, copying about 150 journal articles on wine flavor chemistry, and admit that I'm more than ready to start a real research project again. I haven't done anything but routine tech work, job hunting, and coping with medical disasters in six months. Mary Lou ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 16:08:23 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Ronnie Bob Whitaker Subject: Re: Nichelle Nichols' message Friday, 4 April 1997, Dear Gang, While my own personal feelings about cults and suicide seem to align themselves quite strongly with Hannah, I don't think that was the point. I also strongly disagree that suicide will solve anything, but I do have to admit that an adult who intelligently decides to commit that act with full knowledge that it is irreversible, without intention to harm others, should have the right to do so. (No suicide bombers trying to bring the justice of the almighty down on various different bystanders allowed in this definition.) Even though I am PERSONALLY STRONGLY against suicide as any kind of solution to anything, I have traveled down a long, hard road to recognize that MY beliefs on this matter should NOT be imposed on another intelligent being who has the right to think the way they please, as long as it doesn't impinge on my own rights. If I remember my Texas Law correctly, I think that attempted suicide is a criminal act which allows the imposition of capital punishment. (I've often wondered about the irony of that position. "Hey, you weren't quite able to successfully kill yourself? Let us help!") Of course, successful suicide is exempt from these laws. We even recently had a death row prisoner who "attempted" suicide the day before he was scheduled for execution. Some said it was to prove that he wasn't mentally competent and therefore not legally eligible for execution, but the judges disagreed and he was executed on schedule. I think Dr. Mary Lou hit the nail on the head when she said: >And this is what Nicelle Nichols was expressing: a deeply held conviction >that the freedom to make ones own decisions about religion is so important >that it's worth allowing people to make bad, self-destructive choices. >That doesn't mean she approved of her brother's choice, or that she >doesn't think he was stupid to allow himself to be brainwashed into >suicide. (And yes, in the context of a cult as opposed to, say, a >prisoner of war, one can't be effectively brainwashed without some active >cooporation.) It doesn't mean she isn't angry and sad at the waste of his >life. >However, I have to admire her for being willing to live by her principles, >even when her family has become one of the tiny minority who are hurt by >them, instead of helped. >And estrangement or not, she could hardly have expressed her love for her >brother in a more meaningful way than she did, by accepting his choices, >even the wrong ones, as part of who and what he was. (Forgive me for pulling more than 4 lines, but it was just too good not to repeat) This also does not excuse the actions of terrorists or hate groups, or cults, etc. when their actions are purposely designed to impinge on the legal rights of others. One of the things that I most enjoyed about STTNG was Cpt Picard's agonizing over the proper interpretation of the Prime Directive in various situations. Too frequently, Cpt Kirk just went in and did what he thought best and justified it and/or suffered the consequences later. The Federation doesn't have to "approve" of the planetary governments or civilizations that make them up or which oppose them, they only demand that these planets not "impose" their beliefs on the Federation