========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 01:53:44 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Anne Pinzow Subject: Re: Hang in there, Lisa Keep writing. It's the best way to get it all out of your system. Also, when the world hurts too much, laugh. It works wonders. Anne ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 01:55:23 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Anne Pinzow Subject: Re: More good news This is great news. I'd love to see us all bursting onto the scene at the same time. Wow, now won't that be something! ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 08:07:27 EST Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jean Lorrah Subject: Jean's e-mail address Comments: To: zeppelin-l@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu March 1, 1997 Dear Friends, Now the problems with the university e-mail program are becoming absurd. Once again this morning the server is down. On Saturday morning that means at least hours before it's fixed, and possibly all weekend. I was going to switch to Juno on Friday anyway, and stay there for two weeks of back-and-forth travel (my own brand of March Madness every year). So, I'm simply switching six days early. For the next three weeks, until March 24, reach me at Jean1@Juno.com. Don't worry if you have sent me mail at the university address--I will get it whenever they get the server up and running again. The only times I won't be checking the university account daily will be when I'm traveling--twice in the next three weeks. This is business, not pleasure. You guys are my lifeline while I'm on the road. I am sorry for the inconvenience. Jean Jean1@Juno.com. This is a temporary e-mail address. My permanent e-mail address is A21711F@msumusik.mursuky,edu. I will return to the .edu account on March 24, 1997. http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3439/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 10:56:21 -1758 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Leigh Kimmel Subject: Re: student cheating >Get real! I'm an ESL teacher, for goodness' sake...you really think I >_would_ give my >students, whom I care about, such a message???? > >Give people *some* credit...sheesh! I must live in a real armpit of rigid ethnocentrism. It's been my experience that when people do decide to make allowances for other cultures' differences instead of treating them as "deviations" from the One True Way, they regard this as being an incredibly gracious act, and the recipient better be just busting wide open with gratitude at this "undeserved favor." I can still hear the talk that my research methods prof gave to that Chinese student (it was done in private, and I accidentally overheard it) and the clear undertone that the prof considered himself well within his rights to just slap on the punishment "because it's your responsibility to know the Right Way" but that he was going to graciously cut this guy some slack this one time for not knowing. Probably the Chinese student didn't pick up that message, since it was in the tone more than the words (that strained "I'm being very patient with you, although I don't have to and I'm not a patient man" voice, etc), but I could really tell it. "I do believe my crucifixion before the public has about reached its limit." ---- Admiral Husband E. Kimmel Leigh Kimmel -- writer, artist and historian kimmel@siu.edu http://members.tripod.com/~kimmel/LHKwebpage.html keeper of the Sime~Gen mailing list, simegen-l@siu.edu Ask me how to order the new S~G novel!!! ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 12:03:27 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Lisa W Subject: Re: Hang in there, Lisa In-Reply-To: <970301015344_207484746@emout07.mail.aol.com> You know what? The laughing part does seem to work. Yesterday I discovered, when I was changing for bed, that I had been wearing my shirt inside out all day and noone noticed including myself! I laughed uproariously and it made me feel much better. ann, you are a wise woman! Hugs all around! Lisa ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 13:23:48 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Cheryl Wolverton Subject: Re: Biopsy results Oh Lisa...Hugs and prayers....I'm so sorry to hear this... ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 10:31:42 -0800 Reply-To: torun@gte.net Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Torun Almer Organization: Starfire Subject: Surgery Lisa W wrote: > > thank you! I will proceed to talk everyone's ear off for the next two > weeks especially since surgery is NMarch 13th. Also, I've been writing > about things so I'll share some of that. > > Hugs all around! > Lisa Dear Lisa, Good to hear that the surgery is scheduled so quickly. Sounds like you'v got a good medical team on your side. We'll all have you in our thoughts on the 13th and during your recovery. Let us know how you're doing both before and after. I had lots of concern the weeks before my hysterectomy but the docs and nurses were super and I had a speedy recovery. Of course, all the wonderful good wishes of my friends helped a lot. Take good care, Torun ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 10:45:23 -0800 Reply-To: torun@gte.net Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Torun Almer Organization: Starfire Subject: Re: time on the net Hannah asks how long we spend at the computer. I spend only an hour every couple of days, mostly answering e-mail and looking into items referenced through e-mail. Like Jean, I don't stay connected long; usually load my new messages in and send messages out, and update the Householdings Register. I spend quite a bit of time on my computer, though, with accounting and correspondence. I also got hooked into The Dig and have spent many fun hours trying to get "Ranger Rick" (actually the character's name is Boston Lowe but I forgot it one day so gave him a new name) into or out of some location. Even David gets into helping figure out what to do next or where next to look. I have a Gateway 2100 Notebook, which is very similar to Jean's in that it's top of the line. I don't use it on the sofa, but do move it around the house. I like it because I can store it in an enclosed dehumidified desk when not in use, and that's very important here in humid, salty-aired Hawaii. All electronics have a rough time of it here. And I can take it with me when I go to the mainland, so I'm not out of touch with all my ListServe friends! I definitely agree with Jean that the Notebook is the way to go. My Notebook is more powerful and has more storage than the desktop my husband bought 3 years ago (I think he's just a teensy bit envious) and didn't cost any more than his did. Take good care, everyone. Torun ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 17:07:38 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: M Petrino Subject: Downloading I just glanced at Icy Nager by AA on JL's page, but found no link for a quick download. By download here do we mean printing, or true downloading to the drive? I am confused about this (but then confusion is my usual state of mind). M.G. Petrino ninetiger@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 21:36:29 EST Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jean Lorrah Subject: Hang in there, Lisa! Lisa writes, "Yesterday I discovered, when I was changing for bed, that I had been wearing my shirt inside out all day and noone noticed including myself!" My grandmother was utterly certain that _accidentally_ wearing a garment inside out all day brought great good luck. It didn't count if you did it deliberately, or if you noticed in the morning and left it, hoping for good luck. Jean Jean1@Juno.com. This is a temporary e-mail address. My permanent e-mail address is A21711F@msumusik.mursuky,edu. I will return to the .edu account on March 24, 1997. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Mar 1997 10:13:18 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Anne Pinzow Subject: Lunacon It seems, to my surprise, that I'm a guest at Lunacon. I didn't even decide to go until last week. Anyway, to those of you who will be there, my schedule is: Saturday, "How Movies Get Written" 2 PM (West A2-3) "The Performance (Acting) Side of Media SF" 3 PM> (West A1) "Low-Budget Filmmaking" (10 PM) (GBN) Readya, A.P.Pinzow "In real life, people don't often see the logic of the situiation. In fiction they have to." "Freedom entails responsibility." Belfry Books We publish the books the wise buy. Look for me at http://members.aol.com/Quillscren/quillnscreen1.html. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Mar 1997 10:17:48 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: PM Newcomb Subject: Re: schools, evolution, etc. In a message dated 97-02-22 16:14:09 EST, you write: << should be TAUGHT as THEORY....which it is when mentioned in schools...what ticks me off about the idea of having it in school is too many people want it taught as FACT when indeed it is only THEORY;) >> Actually, as a theory it stands roughly in the position of Newton's Theory of Gravity...completely consistent... the ground upon which its entire field is based... However,(in West Virginia, public school), evolution was presented in a very different way than gravity. The phrasing and emphasis, not to mention multiple references to "belief" reflected the controversy. Those of us who desire it taught, desire it taught as the other scientific theories are...no one adds riders that each student may choose to believe Newton wrong and gravity inoperable on the earth.... and they shouldn't with evolution either... IMHO, PMN ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Mar 1997 10:18:36 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: PM Newcomb Subject: Re: schools, evolution, etc. In a message dated 97-02-24 11:49:24 EST, you write: << it doesn't do any good to petition him (...God) through prayer. Which also means that there's no particular reason to pay a priest or minister to try. I have heard that biologists, along with psychologists and anthopologists, have the highest per capita proportion of atheists of any professions. >> This is an astonishing definition of priest/minister, and reflects a level of thoughtlessness and misunderstanding that equals a previous speaker's (in this debate) concern about evolutionary theory taught as "fact"....Faith, and most certainly the priest/minister's role are not part of some market of petitions and deeds...that's far too shallow a take on it... I think the real source of conflict is at the root of the purpose of both religion and science: coming to a deeper understanding of the Universe. I agree it's easier to mesh the two when exploring vast sweeping concepts, cosmology, physics, etc., than when tracking the small blips and evolutions of species on this one planet/continent/niche....but I've met many persons of faith in the biological fields.... just very very few fundamentalists.... PMN ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Mar 1997 10:18:38 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: PM Newcomb Subject: Re: schools, evolution, etc. In a message dated 97-02-24 14:06:45 EST, you write: << Den and Rital stories are so appealing -- they're in > many ways an analog to the current struggle between religion and secular > society. >> Newbie tentative question... where are these stories available? PMN : ) ps... email me, don't clutter the list... ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Mar 1997 10:18:39 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: PM Newcomb Subject: Re: Eyes and design (was: schools, evolution, etc.) In a message dated 97-02-24 14:01:01 EST, you write: << ObSimeGen: Is there a connection between the laterals and the II (optical) cranial nerve, to allow selyn field information to be processed by the visual cortex? If so, where? >> Well, aside from the difficulty of neuronal hookup beyond the newborn period, all one would need are links to the occiptal/visual cortex and the processing centers... not to the optic nerve itself...seizures in the visual cortex produce hallucinations without any activity of the optic nerve...Simes would go blind with injury to the input... the lateral, like Digen.... PMN ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Mar 1997 11:18:06 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: PM Newcomb Subject: Re: time on the net Hmmm...time at the computer... Well, I flash on in brief 1 - 3 minute segments to grab my email and the spend up to 3 hours reading and answering...at very irregular intervals...so it may be as short as 10 minutes or as long as three hours... My laptop makes this possible (I'm a person who has even typed papers and stories in bed, a board across my knees and towels for sound insulation...) I have a nifty lap desk from the mail order company Levenger's (gift from a friend), which angles and is easy on hand, back and eyes... Back in school I would occasionally surf... and then I answered on line in sessions up to 2 hours long...My graphics capability right now is middling... I get frustrated waiting for the pictures to boot up (and prefer text most often...)... and I don't think I would read online...I'll down load text and read later... possibly printing out so I could read at work... I carry a clipboard, and there's no really safe place for a laptop to hookup...so the 8 x 11 would be best for me... Antediluvian (by the way, I feel very strongly about keeping fine printing alive... I buy hardbarks and leatherbounds... and I'd be (eventually) strongly for printing special editions of the books...I agree with Captain Kirk... there's nothing like holding a book, feeling the materials, smelling the ink....I hope that never dies completely) PMN : ) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Mar 1997 16:23:05 EST Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Joanne Schechter <102763.1453@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Re: schools and evolution PM Newcomb wrote: > However,(in West Virginia, public school), evolution was presented in a > very different way than gravity. The phrasing and emphasis, not to mention > multiple references to "belief" reflected the controversy. Those of us who > desire it taught, desire it taught as the other scientific theories are...no > one adds riders that each student may choose to believe Newton wrong and > gravity inoperable on the earth.... and they shouldn't with evolution > either... Call me a naive New Yorker, but I just have to ask....Is this for real? They really add this disclaimer to evolutionary theory in the public schools in West Virginia? I guess I haven't been paying close enough attention to this topic--is this common in other states as well? Joanne Schechter ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Mar 1997 18:16:50 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg Subject: Website Art -- [ From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg * EMC.Ver #3.0 ] -- Received: from mail1.digital.com (mail1.digital.com [204.123.2.50]) by cleopatra.ultra.net (8.8.5/ult1.04) with SMTP id PAA13152 for ; Thu, 27 Feb 1997 15:29:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from us3rmc.pa.dec.com by mail1.digital.com (5.65 EXP 4/12/95 for V3.2/1.0/WV) id AA14708; Thu, 27 Feb 1997 12:15:19 -0800 Received: from milkwy.enet by us3rmc.pa.dec.com (5.65/rmc-22feb94) id AA20635; Thu, 27 Feb 97 12:15:15 -0800 Message-Id: <9702272015.AA20635@us3rmc.pa.dec.com> Received: from milkwy.enet; by us3rmc.enet; Thu, 27 Feb 97 12:15:19 PST Date: Thu, 27 Feb 97 12:15:19 PST From: 27-Feb-1997 1515 To: rosemary@milkwy.ENET.dec.com, donna@milkwy.ENET.dec.com, patty@milkwy.ENET.dec.com, shannon@milkwy.ENET.dec.com, barbara@milkwy.ENET.dec.com, ann@milkwy.ENET.dec.com, anne@milkwy.ENET.dec.com, peter@milkwy.ENET.dec.com, tom@milkwy.ENET.dec.com, than@milkwy.ENET.dec.com, hkim@milkwy.ENET.dec.com, mike@milkwy.ENET.dec.com, bruce@milkwy.ENET.dec.com, maria@milkwy.ENET.dec.com, Here's another artist posting sf art online: I'm going to plant a link on the Zeor site under SF links. http://world.std.com/~tonyr Live Long and Prosper, Jacqueline Lichtenberg !!!!!!!Ask me how to get the next Sime~Gen novel!!!!!!!! I have a new eddress - zeor@ucs.net AND a page there with a Sime~Gen novel THE ONLY GOOD SIME - and the early draft of UNTO ZEOR, FOREVER, Sime Surgeon , plus Andrea Alton's S~G novel, Icy Nager and related stories. The URL is http://www.j51.com/~zeor I reserve the right to repost any comment that comes to me that is NOT MARKED DNQ or in some way obviously personal. http://www.lightworks.com/MonthlyAspectarian And my SF Review column at MonthlyAspectarian's site. Join the Sime~Gen Listserve at Tecton Central http://www.best.com/~shadorat/sg/sgfr.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Mar 1997 20:08:12 EST Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jean Lorrah Subject: time on the net Does there seem to be a connection between comfort (laptop on the sofa or in bed, a good screen, youth with no back or eye problems while using a desktop) and hours spent at the keyboard? I'm convinced that the more comfortable it becomes, the more older people will use the Internet. Even if the phone connection is only for a minute or two to upload/download e-mail, the time spent reading and answering certainly counts. The better notebook computers become, the more reading from screen there will be. Of course there will always be books--but they will eventually be for special items only. A book alternative that exists, but in two or three incompatible formats, none of which has had any commercial success, is the small reader-only with a good clear screen, battery operated. You set brightness, contrast, maybe color, certainly type size, to your own comfort. The "book" comes on something like a PMCIA card. One card can carry a number of books, and you can take it back to the bookstore or library, delete the ones you've read, and download new ones onto it. If a single company had gotten this item into production five years ago, it would probably have had an excellent chance of taking hold. Instead, several different companies have made them, each claims that its system is best, and none of them have been able to find a distributor. It's probably too late now; it's just as easy to download from the WWW to your notebook's hard drive--busy execs won't carry BOTH a reader and a notebook computer. Jean Jean1@Juno.com. This is a temporary e-mail address. I will return to A21711F@msumusik.mursuky.edu on March 24, 1997. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Mar 1997 23:21:59 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Anne Pinzow Subject: Re: Hang in there, Lisa And a big bunch of bear hugs back to you. Anne ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 06:57:00 EST Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jean Lorrah Subject: evolution in school Joanne writes, "Call me a naive New Yorker, but I just have to ask....Is this for real? They really add this disclaimer to evolutionary theory in the public schools in West Virginia? I guess I haven't been paying close enough attention to this topic--is this common in other states as well?" It obviously is in the schools around here in Kentucky, for all my students arrive in college convinced that there is as much evidence against evolution as for it. Of course if you ask them, they can't remember what the anti-evolution evidence is. Jean Jean1@Juno.com. This is a temporary e-mail address. I will return to A21711F@msumusik.mursuky.edu on March 24, 1997. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 08:28:53 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg Subject: Re: Hang in there, Lisa! -- [ From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg * EMC.Ver #3.0 ] -- Jean wrote: > > My grandmother was utterly certain that _accidentally_ wearing a garment inside > out all day brought great good luck. It didn't count if you did it > deliberately, or if you noticed in the morning and left it, hoping for good > luck. Jean > Mary Lou Mendum is working on a Sime~Gen story that uses superstitions that children develope to ward off changeover. Could this be one such? JL Live Long and Prosper, Jacqueline Lichtenberg !!!!!!!Ask me how to get the next Sime~Gen novel!!!!!!!! I have a new eddress - zeor@ucs.net AND a page there with a Sime~Gen novel THE ONLY GOOD SIME - and the early draft of UNTO ZEOR, FOREVER, Sime Surgeon , plus Andrea Alton's S~G novel, Icy Nager and related stories. The URL is http://www.j51.com/~zeor I reserve the right to repost any comment that comes to me that is NOT MARKED DNQ or in some way obviously personal. http://www.lightworks.com/MonthlyAspectarian And my SF Review column at MonthlyAspectarian's site. Join the Sime~Gen Listserve at Tecton Central http://www.best.com/~shadorat/sg/sgfr.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 08:29:51 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg Subject: WORK: OUTLINE Comments: To: "James D. Macdonald" -- [ From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg * EMC.Ver #3.0 ] -- Jim wrote: > Jacqueline -- you want to answer this? For myself, I don't think that an > outline for an already-existing story would be useful before seeing the work, > though a sketch/skeleton might be useful afterwards for analyzing it. > No, an "outline" isn't necessary for a short story - however, the new writer should have (as an excersize and discipline) reduced that short story to an outline just to see if it can be done. I warn you - lectures about structure will come pouring out of the woodwork if you submit a structureless piece and call it a short story. Of course, there's always the vignette - legitimate form. However, it too is a high-disciplined form with an underlying structure. Jim, you want to read this short story and pick a topic out of it for the Workshop? I've got Kaas hanging fire waiting for another round of discussion on how to identify and work with CONFLICT. Her outline demonstrated (in addition ot a towering talent and a rich imagination) a total lack of understanding of this CONCEPT. And I can't proceed to PLOT until she can wrap her mind around the concept CONFLICT. As currently written, her story starts and ends with a Hung Hero - the roaring climax is that the Hero decides to stay hung. Yet the whole multiplex premise abounds in innate conflicts - crosshatched with wondrous conflict material - and all ignored. Once I get her to grasp the concept CONFLICT - she'll be off and running in a dozen directions. Live Long and Prosper, Jacqueline Lichtenberg !!!!!!!Ask me how to get the next Sime~Gen novel!!!!!!!! I have a new eddress - zeor@ucs.net AND a page there with a Sime~Gen novel THE ONLY GOOD SIME - and the early draft of UNTO ZEOR, FOREVER, Sime Surgeon , plus Andrea Alton's S~G novel, Icy Nager and related stories. The URL is http://www.j51.com/~zeor I reserve the right to repost any comment that comes to me that is NOT MARKED DNQ or in some way obviously personal. http://www.lightworks.com/MonthlyAspectarian And my SF Review column at MonthlyAspectarian's site. Join the Sime~Gen Listserve at Tecton Central http://www.best.com/~shadorat/sg/sgfr.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 09:12:29 EST Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Larry P Ulrey Subject: Re: Hang in there, Lisa Lisa W wrote: >thank you! I will proceed to talk everyone's ear off for the next two >weeks especially since surgery is NMarch 13th. Our thoughts will be with you. Best wishes. Keep us updated. Lots of hugs. Larry Ulrey ulrey@juno.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 09:12:29 EST Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Larry P Ulrey Subject: Humor The following appeared in Fax Daily: You Might Be Addicted To On Line Services If..... 1. Tech Support calls you for help. 2. You keep begging your friends to get an account so "we can hang out." 3. You want to meet a girl/guy and your first response is to turn on your computer. 4. You have to get a second phone line so you can call Domino's. 5. You've even typed "Drinking online is better than drinking alone." 6. You go into labor and stop to type a special e-mail letting everyone know you are going to be away. 7. You begin to say "heh, heh, heh" instead of laughing. 8. You find yourself lying to others about your time online and when they complain that your phone was busy you claim it was off the hook. 9. You type messages to people while talking to them on the phone. 10. You smile sideways. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 09:29:49 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: M Petrino Subject: Re: WORK: OUTLINE Guess what I will try to do is get my questions answered about S~G canon, write my little story, outline or no, and see how good or bad I do. :) Some questions: Are all channels traced to Rimon Farris? I figure my little channel is going be dead meat because I assume the answer to the above question is true, but I need to have that point confirmed. She's probably one of those first channels who died out(by any number of ways) as you(JL) have suggested in your S~G background file. Changeover occurs at puberty. Does this mean that a female who is about to undergo changeover is a person who has experienced menstruation? I always wondered were that biological fact fit into things. Peace, M.G. Petrino ninetiger@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 09:10:51 -1758 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Leigh Kimmel Subject: Re: schools, evolution, etc. > However,(in West Virginia, public school), evolution was presented in a >very different way than gravity. The phrasing and emphasis, not to mention >multiple references to "belief" reflected the controversy. Those of us who >desire it taught, desire it taught as the other scientific theories are...no >one adds riders that each student may choose to believe Newton wrong and >gravity inoperable on the earth.... and they shouldn't with evolution >either... > I suspect that they can get away with it because gravity deals with daily life, whereas evolution can be put away in a container in the back of the mind. If you ignore gravity, you go "splat!" all over the ground. There aren't so many immediate, awful consequences for rejecting evolution. Another big problem is the way in which science is taught in waaaaay too many schools -- as received truth, on the authority of the textbook (so's history, but that's another matter). They never really talk about how science is an ongoing process, or if they do, it's just sort of brushed over so that kids get the impression that scientific discoveries are more like revelations than human beings struggling to understand the universe. This is how you get people who think that "theory" means "guess" -- they've never gotten clear the difference between facts (the observed data points) and theory (the explanation that ties them together into a pattern). And then there are the _really_ wild opponents to the teaching of evolution. Some years back I saw a book that claimed that the dinosaur bones and other fossils were deceptions created by Satan to lure people into denying God. This isn't just an attack on evolution -- this is an attack on the entire system of science. If you posit that Satan can (and cares to) falsify evidence to deceive people, and can do it so well that you cannot determine by any scientific test that it's a fake, how can you trust any observation? Who's to say that the Devil isn't also tampering with all the telescopes and other scientific instruments? Then of course these people can say that the only thing you can trust to be true is the Bible, which they claim is not only the revealed Word of God, but also that God has specially protected it from Satanic interference thru generations of copying and translations. Speaking of the theory of Biblical innerrancy (which William Jennings Bryan loudly espoused, altho on the witness stand he started hedging and denyed that "days" meant literal 24-hour days in the Genesis 1 account), I'm currently trying to track down when textual criticism of the Bible developed and scholars began talking about the J, E, P and D texts. I suspect that there's a connection with the growing resistance to the theory of evolution, but I'm not sure that it's relevant until I check the dates. For those who aren't familiar, there is a theory among (non-Fundamentalist) Biblical scholars that the first five books of the Bible are a "patchwork quilt" of four separate texts pieced together with some additions from a later editor (suspected to be Ezra or one of his contemporaries) in such a way that the casual reader will not notice. (This is of course regarded as bordering on blasphemy by Fundamentalists, since it claims that the Bible is merely the work of human hands). The evidence for this is quite strong, and it's the best way to explain a lot of the oddities about the Pentateuch. In fact one of these oddities is immediately relevant to our discussion. If you read the first several chapters of Genesis closely, you will notice some odd things. Even in English translation, the difference in tone is noticible. In Genesis 1:1 through 2:4, the Deity is a remote being who creates through speech -- "Let there be...." But the Deity of the rest of the creation account is a hands-on potter who forms creatures from the ground. There are also little discrepancies in the order of creation -- in the first one, plants were created, then birds and fish, then beasts, then humans, who are created in both male and female forms and blessed and called upon to be fruitful and multiply. But in the second account Adam is created when "no shrub of the field had yet appeared on the earth" (Genesis 2:5), and only then does the Deity plant a garden (and give the prohibition about the fruit of the tree of knowledge), make the birds and beasts, and finally make a woman from Adam's rib. Then comes the Fall and the first man and woman are cursed, and childbearing is made onerous, and only after that is the first child born. According to what I've read (I don't know Hebrew myself) the contrasts are even more striking in the original Hebrew. The name of the Deity in the first part is Elohim, a plural title, while in the second the Deity is called by the sacred Name. The narrative style and word-choice are also completely different. After much puzzling, the scholars eventually concluded that these discrepancies made sense only if one assumes that these were originally two totally separate documents, perhaps representing two totally different traditions among the Hebrew people, which were placed side-by-side much later in their development. "I do believe my crucifixion before the public has about reached its limit." ---- Admiral Husband E. Kimmel Leigh Kimmel -- writer, artist and historian kimmel@siu.edu http://members.tripod.com/~kimmel/LHKwebpage.html keeper of the Sime~Gen mailing list, simegen-l@siu.edu Ask me how to order the new S~G novel!!! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 09:37:58 -1758 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Leigh Kimmel Subject: Re: evolution in school I've found some material that appears to support my idea that there is some relationship between the development of Higher Criticism and the Fundamentalists' fear that the authority of the Bible was under attack. (BTW, I made a major error -- textual criticism is the opposite of Higher Criticism, not the same thing. Textual criticism deals with comparing texts to determine which differences are scribal errors and which are the original texts). The development of Higher Criticism was almost contemporary with the development of Darwinism. Now I just need to show that either Fundamentalism contained an element of reaction to Higher Criticism, or that some of the leaders of the prosecution (probably William Jennings Bryan, so I may need to hunt down a biography of him) were aware of the Documentary Hypothesis and very disturbed by it, and saw it and evolution as all threats to the authority of Scripture. Next week is Spring Break, and I'm figuring on spending most of it with my laptop, busy collecting the pieces that I need to put this thing together. "I do believe my crucifixion before the public has about reached its limit." ---- Admiral Husband E. Kimmel Leigh Kimmel -- writer, artist and historian kimmel@siu.edu http://members.tripod.com/~kimmel/LHKwebpage.html keeper of the Sime~Gen mailing list, simegen-l@siu.edu Ask me how to order the new S~G novel!!! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 10:41:31 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Margaret Carter Subject: Re: time on the net I was surprised to read that some people routinely stay online for 3 hours. Must be nice to have such large blocks of free time! (Well, the kids will eventually go away completely, except for pleasant drop-in and holiday visits -- so I assume, though it's not happening as soon as I'd hoped -- and now that we seem to be settled in one place for the foreseeable future, we can't move away and hope they won't find us !) With our present desktop computer setup, I would find it very tiring to read anything long on the screen. If it's long, I print it out. I do enjoy having a hard copy to keep anyhow. The only drawback is using up so much of our own paper and cartridge ink, but that does have to be cheaper than buying a book. Still, I'm very glad to have SHIFT OF MEANS as a paper zine, so I don't have to face the "strain the neck and eyes" / "use up a ream of paper" dilemma. I trust the paper book will never completely disappear. Even if I had a super-convenient notebook computer, I would hardly want to lug it to work to read from on my lunch hour, for instance. So when is Mary Lou's next story about the detective and her "pet Gen" going to be posted? Hint, hint (beg). Margaret ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 10:46:56 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Margaret Carter Subject: Re: Humor (online addiction) Heh-heh-heh! All except for the "second phone line" clause, which is too realistic to be really funny. We got a second line almost immed. after signing up for AOL. With a fax and a modem in the house, and several people competing to use the online service (as well as receiving ordinary phone calls now and then), trying to function without a dedicated line for the electronics would be hopeless. (It was also handy one time when the primary line went dead. We could use the fax phone to report the trouble to the phone company.) Now, maybe a person living alone would be a little extreme to have 2 lines. I dunno -- even if I were alone, I would hate to worry about missing calls (or, contrariwise, having incoming calls throw me off line). Margaret ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 12:14:29 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Anne Pinzow Subject: Re: Hang in there, Lisa! I don't know how wearing or not wearing something backwards might ward off tentacles but I imagine that if you get bitten by a spider you would certainly expect to turn into a Sime. Of course eating octopus would be paramont to actually doing something to become a Sime. One could always wear braclets around their wrists so that tentacles won't come out. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 12:23:15 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Anne Pinzow Subject: Re: Humor (online addiction) I got a second phone line immediately before I went online. Aside from the conviences that Margret pointed out, it's essential when I'm having problems with the online service. I can talk to them and they talk me through it. Anne ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 12:18:37 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Anne Pinzow Subject: Re: Humor In a message dated 97-03-03 10:17:45 EST, you write: You Might Be Addicted To On Line Services If..... 1. Tech Support calls you for help. 2. You keep begging your friends to get an account so "we can hang out." I've done this. 3. You want to meet a girl/guy and your first response is to turn on your computer. I've done this. 4. You have to get a second phone line so you can call Domino's. Actually, I've ordered pizza online from Domino's. 5. You've even typed "Drinking online is better than drinking alone." 6. You go into labor and stop to type a special e-mail letting everyone know you are going to be away. 7. You begin to say "heh, heh, heh" instead of laughing. 8. You find yourself lying to others about your time online and when they complain that your phone was busy you claim it was off the hook. 9. You type messages to people while talking to them on the phone. I've definetly done this. 10. You smile sideways. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 13:40:00 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg Subject: WORK: CONFLICT/GENRE Comments: To: Cheryl Wolverton -- [ From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg * EMC.Ver #3.0 ] -- Cheryl Wolverton writes: JL aside to Workshoppers: (now keep in mind Kaas and others - Cheryl is erupting into professional print - an overnight success after 10 years of hard work nobody will ever consider when she garners accolades. And she has just begun to understand how very much more she has to learn about CONFLICT. It isn't something you just learn one day and then you know it. It's a lifetime study of human nature.) So Cheryl writes: > I think I am STARTING to understand conflict... > > In a ROMANCE it's he can't love her/marry her/stay there, > etc...BECAUSE....CORRECT?????? YESSS!!! And remember I keep harping on the definition of plot that I made up myself - PLOT=BECAUSE. Plot is a because chain. No event in the plot sequence can ever be allowed to happen if it isn't a result of something that has gone before that is the result of the action/decision that happened on page one. Page One is where the two elements that will conflict to generate the plot first come in contact. In Romance, that "love her/stay here" etc 's the one that has to carry the ball - but there can be others that consist of subsets of that one. The line of "tension" along which the story must move to stay within genre specs defines the type of conflict you can use to generate that sort of plot. Conflict in essence is an urgent and necessary MUST that runs up against an equally imperative CAN'T. The story is how the MUST triumphs over (or is defeated by) the CAN'T. In sf, "can't" isn't acceptable to a Hero. The plot isn't over until the Hero wins. Not every sort of fiction even uses a Hero for a protagonist you know, but SF is a sub-genre of the larger type of fiction known as Romance Literature - (not having to do with love stories; having to do with "romanticizing" adventure, life, etc.) Heros are by defn "larger than life" creations - imaginary beings created out of real people. Inside themselves, heros don't feel heroic. SF is defined by editors as the subset of Romance Literature defined by "action" AND "adventure." Thus you must have a Hero who goes on an adventure and solves his problem with "action" (today "action" has been redefined by commercial publishing to mean violence.) Each genre has it's defining boundaries like that - that's what makes it a genre. That way when you buy a book you know what you're getting before you read it. Genre isn't defined by what is included - it's defined by what is excluded. When I was a kid, the main ambition of most of the writers making it in the field was to "break out of sf" to shed the sf label from the spines of their books. I found that attitude despicable - and in a way I still do though I understand why they feel that way. Science fiction is my life. And I am still firmly convinced it is the highest form of Literature ever invented by mankind. However, to me sf has nothing whatever to do with action or adventure or even Heroism. All that is imposed from the outside. SF is a Literature of Ideas. All the rest is the shape of the commercial conduit through which these ideas must be delivered to the target audience. When the target audience was teenage boys , the vehicle had to be action/adventure. That's not the bulk of the audience anymore but the publishers haven't adjusted the vehicle. The subset of Ideas I deal in is Philosophy, Relationships and personal evolution. All of those are emphatically disallowed by the "action" and "adventure" and very often by the "hero" requirements of this genre formula. But you can't write about nonhuman people or mutations or ESP or magick or vampires or anything really interesting without having the SF/F label slapped on your product. And then the story is disallowed because it's not sf/f. THAT is the uphill battle I've been fighting all these years - challenging the formula envelope. And I've racked up some successes and some failures. I don't want to break out of the "sf label" - I want to include all the other forms - including Romance - INSIDE the sf label. Cheryl also writes: > Yeah, I'm sorta wow'd over the schedule and I'm working on the third proposal > for the one they want to release in the summer next year! I coudln't believe > it when she said they want to have me release several to set me up as one of > their leading authors...Gulp! WORKSHOPPERS: Cheryl is experiencing living proof that what Jean and I have been telling you all these months is absolutely true - and still true. Sf went down the tubes first - because sf folk were the front edge of the online wave. Romance is right behind. Romance publishing is undergoing what sf publishing went through in 1989-90. The editors are in a panic knowing what's happened to other genres. They are madly, frantically searching for A NEW STAR to drag their lines up into the black again. They are relying on major best sellers and brand new writers - and ignoring almost everyone in between. Thus since they discovered Cheryl is unknown and actually can write very well indeed - they are now going to push her to the top. Ten years ago that would have been wonderful news. Today, it's not. Today, although Cheryl is totally focused on making hay while the sun shines (as she should be) she should also be figuring what to do when the field collapses under her or abandons her because sales weren't big enough despite all the pushing the editors could do. (and they won't be as good as the editors hope - though better than Cheryl would ever dream). And if she does make it to the top of the sales charts - which is possible because she's that good already - the charts themselves are about to turn to gossamer ash and blow away. What would have been a lifelong career with a steady income now is not a career at all, but a peak of opportunity. Cheryl - the career advice I have for you is twofold. Nurture the Web presence of your work. And make sure everything you write becomes part of your "backlist". In Romance, there is no "backlist" (yet). They don't reprint and re-issue and build unending sequels and serials. That's changing - I've seen some sequels, and some related books. Push your way into that wave - it'll last longer than anything else. But it too will transplant to the Web as soon as all these infrastructure matters we've been discussing on the List come to pass. Create your books to look like Romances yet build a universe in which a larger tapestry is unfolding - among characters with other stories to tell. Make yourself a "soap opera" universe - that's going to be big on the Web. Live Long and Prosper, Jacqueline Lichtenberg !!!!!!!Ask me how to get the next Sime~Gen novel!!!!!!!! I have a new eddress - zeor@ucs.net AND a page there with a Sime~Gen novel THE ONLY GOOD SIME - and the early draft of UNTO ZEOR, FOREVER, Sime Surgeon , plus Andrea Alton's S~G novel, Icy Nager and related stories. The URL is http://www.j51.com/~zeor I reserve the right to repost any comment that comes to me that is NOT MARKED DNQ or in some way obviously personal. http://www.lightworks.com/MonthlyAspectarian And my SF Review column at MonthlyAspectarian's site. Join the Sime~Gen Listserve at Tecton Central http://www.best.com/~shadorat/sg/sgfr.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 14:30:18 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg Subject: NEWS:S~G Script -- [ From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg * EMC.Ver #3.0 ] -- ListFolk: I've just been told a 7th producer has asked to see the script. The score stands at one definitive no, 7 "that's interesting, send it to me" and still a whole bunch of "fax me a one page description of that". Remember, each one of these places is somewhat impressed or curious about the websites. Oh, and Robyn forwarded one more person for the Farris Channel - pb only not hc and so not qualified for the Founding 400 - but a new person nonetheless. This person found Tecton Central via a search engine - so I'm trying to find out if we're listed with Yahoo. All kinds of sign-on problems today. Tech always abandons you when you need it most. Today, my ISP decided to add a friendly message to their routine answering and it's ruined the easy, smooth way my software calls up the dialers and creates the connections. Now everything stumbles and crashes and gives me a hard time. Live Long and Prosper, Jacqueline Lichtenberg !!!!!!!Ask me how to get the next Sime~Gen novel!!!!!!!! I have a new eddress - zeor@ucs.net AND a page there with a Sime~Gen novel THE ONLY GOOD SIME - and the early draft of UNTO ZEOR, FOREVER, Sime Surgeon , plus Andrea Alton's S~G novel, Icy Nager and related stories. The URL is http://www.j51.com/~zeor I reserve the right to repost any comment that comes to me that is NOT MARKED DNQ or in some way obviously personal. http://www.lightworks.com/MonthlyAspectarian And my SF Review column at MonthlyAspectarian's site. Join the Sime~Gen Listserve at Tecton Central http://www.best.com/~shadorat/sg/sgfr.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 18:31:51 EST Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Joanne Schechter <102763.1453@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Re: evolution & schools Jean writes: >... all my > students arrive in college convinced that there is as much evidence > against evolution as for it. Of course if you ask them, they can't > remember what the anti-evolution evidence is. Jean Un-fraggin-believable. Joanne ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 21:06:25 EST Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jean Lorrah Subject: writer's website Here's a URL to visit to see how a writer who does _not_ have a group of wonderful fans creating websites for her has nevertheless made her story samples interactive, using resources found on the WWW. Jean http://www.sff.net/people/Hodgson/ Jean1@Juno.com. This is a temporary e-mail address. I will return to A21711F@msumusik.mursuky.edu on March 24, 1997. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 16:26:11 -0800 Reply-To: torun@gte.net Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Torun Almer Organization: Starfire Subject: Re: Humor (online addiction) Anne Pinzow wrote: > > I got a second phone line immediately before I went online. Aside from the > conviences that Margret pointed out, it's essential when I'm having problems > with the online service. I can talk to them and they talk me through it. > > Anne We don't have a second line but I'm lucky in that my downstairs tenants let me use their cordless phone when I'm having problems with my computer online. But the day may come when David wants to be online the same time I do. Torun ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 16:21:12 -0800 Reply-To: torun@gte.net Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Torun Almer Organization: Starfire Subject: Re: time on the net Margaret Carter wrote: > I trust the paper book will never completely disappear. Even if I had a > super-convenient notebook computer, I would hardly want to lug it to work to > read from on my lunch hour, for instance. Hear, hear! Let's hear it for the paperback. I knew I wasn't the only one who liked to read from a book. I _do_ have a super-convenient notebook computer with a top-of-the-line screen and I don't even want to lug if to an easy chair let alone to work. Torun ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 16:35:55 -0800 Reply-To: torun@gte.net Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Torun Almer Organization: Starfire Subject: Re: schools, evolution, etc. Leigh Kimmel wrote: > > For those who aren't familiar, there is a theory among (non-Fundamentalist) > Biblical scholars that the first five books of the Bible are a "patchwork > quilt" of four separate texts pieced together with some additions from a > later editor (suspected to be Ezra or one of his contemporaries) in such a > way that the casual reader will not notice. Dear Leigh, When you get to the New Testament, you might want to take a look at _The Gnostic Gospels_ by Elaine Pagels. Her question/answer style of writing is a little difficult, but it's an interesting book discussing why/how the church in Rome decided which gospels to include in the Bible. Torun ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 22:43:48 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Anne Pinzow Subject: The `Q' Phone: I saw this today and I just couldn't resist posting it. John de Lancie, `Q' of Star Trek: The Next Generation joins QUALCOMM at CTIA's Wireless `97 to host live demonstrations of the revolutionary new phone SAN FRANCISCO, March 3 /PRNewswire/ -- QUALCOMM Incorporated (Nasdaq: QCOM) today unveiled the first palm-sized phone to offer the extraordinary benefits of its Code Division Multiple Access (CDMA) digital technology, including exceptional voice quality and enhanced security. "For the first time in the history of wireless communications, consumers will have more than just the beauty and convergence a palm-sized phone offers, QUALCOMM's `Q' phone offers the exceptional performance that only our CDMA digital technology can deliver and supports instant wireless access to Internet information at the touch of a button," said Dr. Paul E. Jacobs, president of QUALCOMM's Subscriber Products Division. "The introduction of the new CDMA digital PCS `Q' phone provides another example of QUALCOMM's leadership in the innovative design and manufacture of the most advanced CDMA digital solutions available today." The new Personal Communications Services (PCS) 1900 MHz "Q" phone is the smallest and lightest CDMA phone in existence, weighing in at approximately 5 ounces (147 grams). Designed with frequent wireless users in mind, the "Q" phone offers the convenience of a small phone plus delivers the advanced performance of a complete wireless information appliance. The new "Q" supports instant wireless access to information previously available only from computing devices, including meeting schedules, airline reservations, stock quotes, weather reports, movie listings and sports scores. The "Q" phone is expected to become commercially available during summer of 1997. John de Lancie, who portrayed "Q" on the popular television series, Star Trek: The Next Generation(TM), was on hand to demonstrate QUALCOMM's new phone at the Cellular Telecommunications Industry Association's Wireless `97 show in San Francisco's Moscone Convention Center. snip The "Q" phone is the first CDMA digital phone to offer users a choice of call alerts, including a new vibration mode, allowing users to be silently notified of a call or page, and a variety of programmable ringers. For greater flexibility in call answering, the "Q" phone offers users a choice to best suit their tastes. Users can select automatic call answer which enables users to answer a call by simply opening the phone, or for those who prefer caller ID, users may choose to have the phone display the call upon opening and answer the call with a single touch. In addition the QUALCOMM phone offers a convenient ear-jack and optional headset for hands-free calling. Like QUALCOMM's entire series of CDMA digital portable phones, the "Q" phone features one of the largest liquid crystal displays (LCD) available, including a four-line by 12 character display area plus a line of icons indicating signal strength, battery status, transmission mode, roaming status and other functions. The large display is ideal for enhanced calling features that the phones support such as incoming caller ID, short messaging service and voice mail alert. The "Q" phone will also be upgradeable to accommodate future wireless data and Internet information access options. The "Q" phone complements QUALCOMM's entire family of advanced CDMA digital phones, including the QCP series of cellular and PCS portable phones and the QCT series of cellular and PCS fixed wireless phones. Snip ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 23:49:10 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Karen Litman Subject: So you want a day off?! Found this in an alumni newsletter from my local Community College. They attribute it to an unknown author found on the Web. Thought all of you would like it. Karen Litman So you want the day off. Let's take a look at what you are asking for. There are 365 days per year available for work. There are 52 weeks per year in which you already have two days off per week, leaving 251 days available for work. Since you spend 16 hours a day away from work, you have used up 170 days, leaving only 81 days available. You spend 30 minutes each day on coffee breaks, that accounts for 23 days a year, leaving 68 days available. With a one-hour lunch period every day, you have used up another 46 days, leaving only 22 days available. You normally spend 2 days sick per year, this now only leaves you 20 days available. You get 5 public holidays a year, so your working time is now down to 15 days a year. We generously give you 14 days vacation per year, which leaves only one day available for work. So if you think you are going to get that day off, you're out of your mind! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 02:11:23 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Kaas Baichtal Subject: WORK: OUTLINE In a message dated 97-03-03 09:17:57 EST, Jacqueline Lichtenberg: << I've got Kaas hanging fire waiting for another round of discussion on how to identify and work with CONFLICT. Her outline demonstrated (in addition ot a towering talent and a rich imagination) a total lack of understanding of this CONCEPT. And I can't proceed to PLOT until she can wrap her mind around the concept CONFLICT. As currently written, her story starts and ends with a Hung Hero - the roaring climax is that the Hero decides to stay hung. Yet the whole multiplex premise abounds in innate conflicts - crosshatched with wondrous conflict material - and all ignored. >> Uhm.... With all due respect... how can you possibly be sure I am ignoring the conflicts inherit in my premise? The only data you have to base that on is the fact that I don't yet know your outlining theories and can't describe what I want to do in "your language". It's like assuming someone from a different country is uneducated about politics because they can't speak english well enough to describe their campaign strategy to you. I believe you that outlining is important and I plan to work hard to improve at it. But as the facts stand now, I have been writing stories for many years and only writing outlines for _one month_. So in effect, with nothing to look at but an outline, you're having to look at my story through the equivalent of a kid's toy kaleidoscope. Until I have learned enough to fashion a real lens (ie write an outline using your terms, so there is no distortion of my intentions), there is no way to effectively judge either my writing ability or this particular story's merit. At least IMHO. --Kaas ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 02:18:53 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Kaas Baichtal Subject: WORK: That having been said.... That having been said, does anybody want to put the screws to the 2nd draft of a humorous short story? It does not have an outline but is rather short, about 8 pages. --Kaas ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 06:54:23 EST Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jean Lorrah Subject: WORK: background M. G. Petrino asks if all channels are descended from Rimon. Goodness no! Most channels are not Farrises and would never want to be. Female Simes: in Gen Territory a girl can breathe a huge sigh of relief when she first menstruates: she is not going to change over. First menstration in a Sime woman will _normally_ occur about two weeks after changeover. But junct women will frequently be highly irregular because of malnutrition. Freeband Raider women may never even menstruate at all, because they don't ovulate, either. Normal Sime women barely carry enough body fat to allow for estrogen production. Fertility rate is low among junct Simes. Jean Jean1@Juno.com. This is a temporary e-mail address. I will return to A21711F@msumusik.mursuky.edu on March 24, 1997. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 06:54:23 EST Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jean Lorrah Subject: WORK: Conflict Interesting that this topic should come up just now. I'm in the planning stages of what may die aborning or may become a fantasy romance, and right now I am precisely trying to work out the conflicts of the two main characters so that they complement one another. Any author who has ever been in a workshop with me knows that around the bottom of page two I start writing "Who is the protagonist and what is his or her conflict?" The rule of thumb is this: by two pages into a novel the reader must know who one of the protagonists is (there may be only one, but in a romance there are generally two). The protagonist is the person who undergoes the conflict--that is, who has a goal. The more serious that goal, the more serious the conflict. Sometimes a protagonist starts out with one goal, but achieving it leads to a bigger conflict--Dorothy wants to go over the rainbow, but when she does, it becomes much more important to get home. Disney films are really great at defining conflict this way, probably because they are designed so children can relate to them. The Little Mermaid wants to see the world beyond the ocean--but when she does, she falls in love and gets a whole new goal. Simba "just can't wait to be king," but it never dawns on the baby lion that in order for that to happen, his beloved father has to die. His evil uncle is able to play to that weakness, and almost succeeds in causing Simba to refuse ever to have a goal in life again. Or look at _Ambrov Keon_. Risa's first goal is very simple: to survive after the shipwreck in which her father dies. She meets Sergi, who saves her life. His goal, having lost the channel he was escorting in the same storm, is to bring a channel to Keon. After he discovers that Risa has the potential to become the best channel he has ever met, his goal becomes to bring _Risa_ to Keon. As the book proceeds, the goal of both of them becomes to save Keon, although their ideas about how to do that are completely different. The shared goal, however, leads them to fall in love. Now that is the same structure I want for my fantasy romance. I've got vague ideas about the two protagonists. My female protagonist, tentatively named Clare, is a mercenary warrior who travels with two male companions. They have been living this life for six years, and she has reached the age at which she is ready to settle down, while the men are content with their life as it is. My male protagonist, Jonal, is a minor lord who has been dragged into a war begun by his overlord, who is simply out to take over more land. Feudal fealty requires Jonal to raise an army and fight in his lord's service, while his men follow him for the same reason. Naturally, they are on the losing side. Jonal and Clare first meet on opposite sides in the battle. He has never seen an Amazon before--she almost kills him because he can't bring himself to try to kill a woman. He looks at the mercenaries, who can choose which side they will fight on, and who choose their own masters, and for a moment wishes he had their freedom. I'm missing a piece here--I need conflict between them when they next meet off the battlefield. But it's not that he attempts to rape her--I know that is a staple of romances these days, but I can't write that particular scenario. This guy is the hero, folks! I need something that is the equivalent of the junct vs. householder value system that creates the tension between Risa and Sergi--but as in a romance the focus has to be on the love story, not the background, it cannot be even half as complex as that. It must be something believable that can be drawn quickly in bold strokes. I have the next piece, though. Jonal's overlord has lost the war he started. In the treaty that follows he must give up some of _his_ lands--and so he gives up Jonal's! Our male protagonist suddenly has what he wanted--he's free all right! That automatically reverses his goal: now he wants his land and title back. You can tell that this is all pretty vague at this point. Right now I haven't the foggiest notion of how he manages to hook up with Clare and her companions, or what the in-between goal is that leads them on some getting-to-know-you adventures (Dorothy has to go to Oz to consult the Wizard about getting home, and gets to know the Scarecrow, the Tin Man, and the Cowardly Lion along the way) BEFORE they can attempt the final goal of getting Jonal's heritage back. Of course you all know that in the end they succeed, and that Jonal and Clare have fallen in love along the way, so at the end she will have to home she yearned to settle down in, while Robyn and Niko, her fellow mercenaries, can still exercise their love of adventure as leaders in Jonal's army. The reason none of this fits together yet is that I do not have the primary CONFLICT between the two main characters. Once I figure that out, the rest will fall right into place. You have no idea how easy _Ambrov Keon_ was to write, because the junct/householder conflict was so clear and led to everything else. I hope this description of something missing will help to clarify the concept of conflict. Jean Jean1@Juno.com. This is a temporary e-mail address. I will return to A21711F@msumusik.mursuky.edu on March 24, 1997. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 07:02:25 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: PM Newcomb Subject: Re: schools and evolution Well, I graduated in 1980, but when last I heard from friends and family, evolution is still being taught with the disclaimer.... we were in the main university town of the state, also... as "metropolitan" as it gets...Not five years earlier, a school teacher was removed from her post as art teacher in Faimont (approximately where Mary Lou Retton came from, and less than 20 miles from WVU) for "spouting communistic viewpoints and thereby possibly corrupting the schoolchildren.".... by my calender that was a good 20 years behind the current in the rest of the country... Scientific American reported last year (or the one before... I can't recall) that textbooks with disclaimers, or just lacking the subject, were on the increase, not the decrease... and let's not forget that many districts are still banning books... and still burning them symbolically....Boston holds a Banned Book reading each year... and stuff from "The Wizard of Oz" to the Narnia books to "Huck Finn" remain banned to this date in some places.... Intentional ignorance remains a strong force in this country... PMN ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 08:57:10 -1758 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Leigh Kimmel Subject: Re: schools and evolution >Boston >holds a Banned Book reading each year... and stuff from "The Wizard of Oz" to >the Narnia books to "Huck Finn" remain banned to this date in some places.... If it's Christian fundamentalists who are banning the Narnia books, this is particularly ironic, since CS Lewis wrote them from a specificly Christian viewpoint. "I do believe my crucifixion before the public has about reached its limit." ---- Admiral Husband E. Kimmel Leigh Kimmel -- writer, artist and historian kimmel@siu.edu http://members.tripod.com/~kimmel/LHKwebpage.html keeper of the Sime~Gen mailing list, simegen-l@siu.edu Ask me how to order the new S~G novel!!! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 10:18:04 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg Subject: NEWS:S~G script -- [ From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg * EMC.Ver #3.0 ] -- ListFolk: We're still on a roll. Yesterday, 3 more requests for full scripts to read were added to the 6 already on desks (that's 3 MORE different producers, not more scripts for the same producers!). That makes 9 submissions in progress simultaneously. The flat rejections of the full script still total 1. Keep in mind that the kinds of companies we're submitting to - all 9 of the above - are "big budget" - meaning 30-40 million and up - mostly up on this last 3. Far up. A budget like that would mean real looking tentacles. Good acting. But everything else sacrificed to the Box Office Draw, including my own hobbyhorse storylogic. Still - a media event for an opening. That means more NOVELS. Lots of novels. That means all our writers get their chance. It also would mean we better gather and train a really dedicated Welcommittee. But even if all 9 are rejections (the highest probability is 9 flat rejections you understand - we're talking about the major big budget projects and there are only a few of those each year chosen from many hundreds of scripts) - we still have all the medium and low budget producers to cycle this through. There are a lot more smaller budget pictures made each year - primarily looking to make their profit on international and videotape. This submission process will take awhile. Still - to get 9 Big Budget places to look at this script (even just look at nevermind actually read) blows all the probabilities right out of the water. I'm living in a sense of unreality about this. Getting ONE such place to look at the script would have been hitting the longest longshot of my life. A hole-in-one on a par 5 dogleg right over a water hazard and some really tall redwoods - hitting a small but very fast green bunkered with 3 sandtraps. And nobody on that green to pull the pin because who would ever have expected I could get the ball there using a #3 wood. And we've hit 9 - not quite in a row, but all on the same round on this same 18 hole course. A course like Chabot in the Bay Area. Straight up and down - marvelous view - an amateur killer of a course. Live Long and Prosper, Jacqueline Lichtenberg !!!!!!!Ask me how to get the next Sime~Gen novel!!!!!!!! I have a new eddress - zeor@ucs.net AND a page there with a Sime~Gen novel THE ONLY GOOD SIME - and the early draft of UNTO ZEOR, FOREVER, Sime Surgeon , plus Andrea Alton's S~G novel, Icy Nager and related stories. The URL is http://www.j51.com/~zeor I reserve the right to repost any comment that comes to me that is NOT MARKED DNQ or in some way obviously personal. http://www.lightworks.com/MonthlyAspectarian And my SF Review column at MonthlyAspectarian's site. Join the Sime~Gen Listserve at Tecton Central http://www.best.com/~shadorat/sg/sgfr.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 09:53:30 -1758 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Leigh Kimmel Subject: Re: NEWS:S~G script >We're still on a roll. Yesterday, 3 more requests for full scripts to read >were added to the 6 already on desks (that's 3 MORE different producers, not >more scripts for the same producers!). That makes 9 submissions in progress >simultaneously. > This is great news! "I do believe my crucifixion before the public has about reached its limit." ---- Admiral Husband E. Kimmel Leigh Kimmel -- writer, artist and historian kimmel@siu.edu http://members.tripod.com/~kimmel/LHKwebpage.html keeper of the Sime~Gen mailing list, simegen-l@siu.edu Ask me how to order the new S~G novel!!! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 10:01:27 -1758 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Leigh Kimmel Subject: Re: WORK: OUTLINE >As currently written, her story starts and ends with a Hung Hero - the >roaring climax is that the Hero decides to stay hung. Yet the whole >multiplex premise abounds in innate conflicts - crosshatched with wondrous >conflict material - and all ignored. > Could you elucidate a little more just what you mean by the term "Hung Hero." I can tell that it's a shorthand term for something important (rather like I use "pinball syndrome" for a protagonist who just sort of bounces along from event to event without doing anything, rather like the steel ball in the pinball machine). However I'm not sure exactly what you mean by it, and I'm sure that we have even more people here who are very new to workshopping and have absolutely no idea what you mean. My own personal guess is that you're talking about a protagonist who refuses to make a choice to resolve the conflict one way or another. But you could be meaning a whole lot more by that, and I wouldn't necessarily know. "England expects every man to do his duty." ---- Admiral Lord Nelson Leigh Kimmel -- writer, artist and historian kimmel@siu.edu http://members.tripod.com/~kimmel/LHKwebpage.html keeper of the Sime~Gen mailing list, simegen-l@siu.edu Ask me how to order the new S~G novel!!! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 10:10:09 -1758 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Leigh Kimmel Subject: the workshopping topic We finally have a discussion going strong in the WORK: topic. However I have a feeling that one or more people who want to be in the writers' workshop may not be getting the posts. If you are in this situation, please e-mail me at kimmel@siu.edu and let me know so that we can get your topic mask profile fixed. "England expects every man to do his duty." ---- Admiral Lord Nelson Leigh Kimmel -- writer, artist and historian kimmel@siu.edu http://members.tripod.com/~kimmel/LHKwebpage.html keeper of the Sime~Gen mailing list, simegen-l@siu.edu Ask me how to order the new S~G novel!!! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 11:37:33 EST Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Lynda M Tatad Subject: Re: NEWS:S~G script Jacqueline, Great news! I've got my fingers and toes crossed!! Lynda ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 11:48:03 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg Subject: Re: WORK: OUTLINE Comments: To: "KBaichtal@aol.com" -- [ From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg * EMC.Ver #3.0 ] -- Kaas wrote quite correctly: > Uhm.... > > With all due respect... how can you possibly be sure I am ignoring the > conflicts inherit in my premise? Because the story starts and ends with a Hung Hero. Where there's a conflict-driven plot, you can't have a hung hero. He/she unhangs on the first page and keeps driving and driving until the resolution - refusing to pause long enough to be hung. So even if you don't know how to outline at all - or do it instinctively in the subconscious - or are using one of the (zillions of) other outlining methods I've mastered - no matter how you go about presenting the material - it will be perfectly clear that you've got your teeth into a conflict and your Hero resolves that conflict at the end. BTW: one of the reasons I'm harping on learning to WRITE outlines either before or after creating the story is that THIS IS WHAT YOU MUST DO TO SELL anything before you've written it. Otherwise - writing the outline down is a total waste of time. However, by writing it down you are also able to set it out for workshopping, and to look at it yourself to find the flaws before wasting time writing words that don't work. There is no way to make a living in this industry if you write everything before you sell it. (unless you're Andre Norton - that's what she does - writes on spec only - because her nerves can't take it any other way). Too many ideas just don't click in the marketplace. You have to know how to present an idea in the format that working editors know how to decode into the finished product and judge whether it fits their line or not. And HOW MUCH YOU GET PAID for the novel you haven't written depends on how well you write the outline - not on how well you write the book. It is an application of this set of skills that is causing the phenomenal progress of the S~G script - 9 places! That wouldn't have happened without a brilliant reduction of the 120 pages of script into ONE PAGE synopsis. You can't get a workable selling synopsis out of 120 pages without an OUTLINE. You don't reduce the 120 pages, you reduce the outline! In fact, you start with the one page concept, expand to 5 pages, expand to 20, then expand to 120 - then reduce the same way. The techniques I'm harping on here are those exact same techniques. This is not makework. This is professional craftsmanship. This is a critical skill - no matter whether you do it instinctively or by cold calculated technique - whether you do it before or after you've got the whole story in your head. But it's only critical if your goal is to make a living from writing. Otherwise it's only a useful learning tool. Live Long and Prosper, Jacqueline Lichtenberg !!!!!!!Ask me how to get the next Sime~Gen novel!!!!!!!! I have a new eddress - zeor@ucs.net AND a page there with a Sime~Gen novel THE ONLY GOOD SIME - and the early draft of UNTO ZEOR, FOREVER, Sime Surgeon , plus Andrea Alton's S~G novel, Icy Nager and related stories. The URL is http://www.j51.com/~zeor I reserve the right to repost any comment that comes to me that is NOT MARKED DNQ or in some way obviously personal. http://www.lightworks.com/MonthlyAspectarian And my SF Review column at MonthlyAspectarian's site. Join the Sime~Gen Listserve at Tecton Central http://www.best.com/~shadorat/sg/sgfr.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 11:48:50 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg Subject: Linguistic Scholarship/Biblical Comments: cc: "N. G. Lichtenberg" , "DreamSpy1@aol.com" -- [ From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg * EMC.Ver #3.0 ] -- ListFolk: I've been scanning and deleting messages - don't recall who raised this topic. THE FOLLOWING IS A FICTIONAL PREMISE - NOT A PERSONAL POSITION. Someone pointed out that Linguistic evidence within the First Five Books of the Bible indicates that they were originally 4 - and a lot of filler material was added by later scholars or copyists. Actually, a lot of emendation was apparently done by the copyists trying to fix "mistakes" that prior copyists obviously made. Considering the attitude of these copyists - which attitude still exists today among those who hand-copy this material - how could this have happened ? I've written part of a novel called THE PATH OF THE HEARTHFIRE answering that question. In brief, the answer I chose as the springboard for a multi-lifetime karmic plot was that the "mistakes" that needed fixing happened because material was deleted. To understand how this deletion could have happened, you need to understand that the copyists of old do the copying not from a TEXT but from MEMORY. The text is a song - a poem with meter and rhythm, and designed to be easily memorized and recited from memory. Memory gliches out when what you're trying to remember doesn't fit your View of the Universe - something too improbable to be true will be remembered as something else that is probable enough to actually be true. The attitude of the copyists is that the text is true. Therefore if they remember something and it seems IMPROBABLE - then they assume they must be mis-remembering it. It isn't really an assumption - it's an unconscious assumption. You consciously believe you are correctly remembering - but your subconscious "fixes" it up so it makes sense. Over the centuries, culture shifts and changes - slowly without tv but it changes. The changes between 2 or 3 thousand BC and say 500 AD were mostly in the place of women in social regard. As the place of women in society fell, a text which exalts women's rights becomes improbable, implausible, then untrue - and then a mistake that needs to be fixed. The theory behind THE PATH OF THE HEARTHFIRE is that material got lost out of the text that pertained to women and then the cutting scars got plastered over with other material containing what the copyists understood to be a more plausible version of what they were supposed to be copying - that was obviously filled with mistakes. All the copyists were in those times men. Society changed so slowly that no one alive at any given time could remember any social values that were any different from what they lived with at the present. (except that teenagers have always been going to hell in a handbasket). This premise doesn't fit into Sime~Gen at all - except insofar as it's another way to look at Sacred Texts and their function and propagation in society. And this is a FICTIONAL premise - not my real-life personal opinion. Live Long and Prosper, Jacqueline Lichtenberg !!!!!!!Ask me how to get the next Sime~Gen novel!!!!!!!! I have a new eddress - zeor@ucs.net AND a page there with a Sime~Gen novel THE ONLY GOOD SIME - and the early draft of UNTO ZEOR, FOREVER, Sime Surgeon , plus Andrea Alton's S~G novel, Icy Nager and related stories. The URL is http://www.j51.com/~zeor I reserve the right to repost any comment that comes to me that is NOT MARKED DNQ or in some way obviously personal. http://www.lightworks.com/MonthlyAspectarian And my SF Review column at MonthlyAspectarian's site. Join the Sime~Gen Listserve at Tecton Central http://www.best.com/~shadorat/sg/sgfr.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 12:53:13 EST Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Larry P Ulrey Subject: Re: schools and evolution Leigh wrote: >If it's Christian fundamentalists who are banning the Narnia books, this is >particularly ironic, since CS Lewis wrote them from a specifically >Christian viewpoint. True, as were his other works. But did they ever actually read them before objecting to them? Probably not. Larry Ulrey ulrey@juno.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 12:53:13 EST Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Larry P Ulrey Subject: Re: schools and evolution PM Newcomb wrote: > and let's not forget that many >districts >are still banning books... and still burning them >symbolically....Boston >holds a Banned Book reading each year... and stuff from "The Wizard of >Oz" to >the Narnia books to "Huck Finn" remain banned to this date in some >places.... > Intentional ignorance remains a strong force in this country... Yes, there will always be those who want to censor what they don't agree with. And a lot of times they haven't even read what they object to; they just accept what someone else has said about it. Larry Ulrey ulrey@juno.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 12:20:47 -0700 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: "R. K. Marsh" Subject: Re: NEWS:posting Ch5 to Zeor Re time available to spend online: Until I get online at home, which will require putting in an additional pho= ne line ($$), I'm = lucky if I can get 30-45 minutes! I have to use the networked Macs in the = Writing lab or = the ESL tutoring center (where I work), and I have to compete for the compu= ters with all = the students writing papers and doing research; and academic work takes pre= ference over = online use/email. If it's crowded, e-mailers and Web-readers get booted of= f so that kids = can get their assignments done. That's why I've seen the Zeor site exactly once (though it's really snazzy!= !!), and haven't = read any of the posted novels. Spending that much time hogging a machine i= n a public = computing lab just isn't an option. I suspect that others who are online o= nly at work have = similar problems. It's something to think about, anyway. later, Rhonda -- = "What the space program needs is more English majors." =8B Michael Collins= (Gemini 10, = Apollo 11) Rhonda K. Marsh rmarsh@ccd.cccoes.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 12:37:16 -0700 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: "R. K. Marsh" Subject: Re: student cheating (foreign students) I think the difference is in the training: most academic faculty, it's true= , are never trained to = know anything about the cultures from which their students arrive. But for= us in = ESL/EFL, it's part of the job. I would be fired, instantly, for behaving t= hat way. For example: A few years ago, when I was tutoring part-time at a different community col= lege, one of = the computer-science faculty referred a young Japanese woman to us, because= "she can't = read, and she can't say a single word in English!" Turns out, Eiko wasn't looking the computer-science prof in the eye, becaus= e looking = people in the eye is exceedingly rude for Japanese, and especially females.= And she = wasn't speaking up because the prof was berating her in front of other stud= ents, and = making her lose face. I got with Eiko about three times in a tutoring context, to help her with r= eading strategies = for her highly-technical textbook, and Janice the supervisor of the lab, ta= lked with the prof = and gave her a crash course in Japanese etiquette. HOWEVER, in the ESL/EFL profession, that kind of stuff just doesn't happen.= Part of = our training is in just that sort of thing. The tough stuff is getting som= e of that awareness = across to the "regular" faculty who work with our students once they gradua= te from the = ESL program. Later, Rhonda -- = "What the space program needs is more English majors." =8B Michael Collins= (Gemini 10, = Apollo 11) Rhonda K. Marsh rmarsh@ccd.cccoes.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 13:48:31 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Anne Pinzow Subject: Re: WORK: OUTLINE Ah, the Hung Hero. (And folks, I do have a dirty enough mind to have totally misinterpretted what this term means the first time I heard it.) Your hero is the one who must "solve the problem" but if the hero is in a situation, such as a prison completely sealed from the outside and there is absolutely no way out and no one to help him and he's stuck in there all by himself, well, except for passing through the walls, how does he get out. If this isn't science fiction then (s)he is hung. Someone else has to do the saving. However if someone else does the saving and that someone else is the hero. Try thinking of it this way. You're writing a western and your hero gets hung by the neck and is swinging away in the breeze and there is no one to save him/her and (s)he can't save him/herself because his/her hands are tied, etc. Then you have got a hung hero. Your story is at a dead end. For those of you who are Quantum Leap fans, this was a situation that Sam came very close to finding himself in on any number of occassions. Also in McGyver, he often was almost a hung hero on any number of occassions. What you have your hero have an impact on someone else early on in the story and that impact will cause that third party to help the hero so that in effect the character of the hero is what saved him/her as opposed to the hero's direct actions. There is the very famous story about a science fiction writer who had been doing a series for a science fiction magazine. After a very long run the hero was in a very dark and deep pit. No one could figure out how the hero would get out and it caused wild speculation throughout the readership of the magazine. Even the publisher had no idea. And, as it turned out the writer was having some trouble with it too. The hero was hung. Then came the famous solution to the hung hero problem "With a mighty leap," the hero jumped out of the pit. Well, there was a lot of unfavorable discussion concerning that particular solution. Anne ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 13:04:43 -0700 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: "R. K. Marsh" Subject: Re: schools and evolution Larry Ulrey said: = > >If it's Christian fundamentalists who are banning the Narnia books, this= > is > >particularly ironic, since CS Lewis wrote them from a specifically > >Christian viewpoint. > = > True, as were his other works. But did they ever actually read them > before objecting to them? Probably not. > = > Larry Ulrey > ulrey@juno.com > = Hi, people. Let's please not assume that ALL fundamentalists are knuckle-d= ragging = anti-intellectuals...I am one, as are several other S/G fen that I know. = I'm a fundamentalist, AND I'm an intellectual, AND I'm an educator, AND I'm= a = fan...and I've kept quiet on this topic so far, but now it's getting rude a= nd personal. How about a little reverse tolerance/acceptance, eh? You may not agree wit= h me, but do = me the courtesy of not insulting me to my face. Unto Zeor Forever, Rhonda -- = "What the space program needs is more English majors." =8B Michael Collins= (Gemini 10, = Apollo 11) Rhonda K. Marsh rmarsh@ccd.cccoes.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 18:21:07 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Anne Pinzow Subject: ???I'm Illegal???? Well folks, it has happened. But this time to me. I mean, Jacqueline always told me that she was from another planet, and I think we can all agree that she is. And there are many among us who have always felt alienated from the "non-science fiction fan." But today I have found out that I have been declared, by the government of the United States, as against the law. That's right, I am not allowed to exist. You see, my mother has always said to me, for as long as I can remember, that I am a clone of my father (even though I am female and he, male. And she says she doesn't like science fiction! Ha!) And today President Clinton has signed legislation banning human cloning. And to think, I even voted for the man. Readya, A.P.Pinzow "In real life, people don't often see the logic of the situiation. In fiction they have to." "Freedom entails responsibility." Belfry Books We publish the books the wise buy. Look for me at http://members.aol.com/Quillscren/quillnscreen1.html. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 18:48:29 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: M Petrino Subject: Re: WORK: That having been said.... I'd like to read you ss. I am not the critical type. GLad to see some humor in S~G. Would love to have a Sime gumshoe and do THE MALTESE GEN :) Peace, Marianne ninetiger@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 20:08:36 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Cheryl Wolverton Subject: Re: the workshopping topic ME! I am getting news and goss...and a bunch of messages that are just stuff with nothing before them...but no workshop...the ONLY reason I am on this list is for workshop...but I canNOT get it! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 20:09:32 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Kaas Baichtal Subject: Re: WORK: That having been said.... --PART.BOUNDARY.0.10104.emout05.mail.aol.com.857524171 Content-ID: <0_10104_857524171@emout05.mail.aol.com.20445> Content-type: text/plain In a message dated 97-03-04 19:25:26 EST, you write: << I'd like to read you ss. I am not the critical type. >> Ok... here it is! << GLad to see some humor in S~G. Would love to have a Sime gumshoe and do THE MALTESE GEN :) >> It never would have occurred to me to do something humorous in S~G if it hadn't been for Mary Lou's stories. Have you read them yet? One of them even has a Sime detective! ---Kaas --PART.BOUNDARY.0.10104.emout05.mail.aol.com.857524171 Content-ID: <0_10104_857524171@emout05.mail.aol.com.20446> Content-type: text/plain; name="MYSTERY.ASC" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable THE MYSTERY by Kaas Baichtal =0D People brushed against Jogn Smiht all the time. After all the trains were packed and you got used to people sliding past you, especially if you were lucky enough to end up by the door. That's why he didn't realize he'd been pickpocketed until he reached the Sime Center to make his monthly donation, and the assigned channel gave him a baffled stare. "Sir, you appear to have already given donation for this month." "No I haven't!" he exclaimed, in surprise. "Check again!" While the channel's Companion rolled his eyes in the background, the channel sighed and zlinned him again, making a big show of being very thorough. "No, I'm sorry sir, you seem to be low-field." "But how could this have happened?" exclaimed Jogn, in dismay. "You know better than I," said the channel. "I have no idea where you've been for the last month." She shrugged. "However, you appear to be perfectly healthy. Come back next month when you're high field." Jogn barely heard her - he was too busy watching his life flash before his eyes. He depended utterly upon the money he received for donating, as he was otherwise unemployed. What was he going to do now? Well, there was only one answer for it, and that was to report the theft to the police. =0D The police station was as packed as the train, though one might hope any pickpockets present would be keeping their hands to themselves. The two officers manning the desk were typical of the breed: rotund donut-lovers, with alert eyes that roved the seething lobby like lighthouses atop the craggy peaks of their faces. Jogn took a number and once again lamented his low-field state. In a mob like this, they'd pass over him forever in order to get rid of high- field Gens and Simes in need, number or no. = After a couple of hours wait, though, it was lunch time and the place emptied of Gens rather suddenly. His number was called and after the clerk ascertained he was there to report a theft, he was pointed over to a side door. "Officer Tetje will take your statement." The hallway beyond was painted with a green paint, the peculiar shade of which seemed calculated to heighten the sensation of desperation in its viewers. Jogn wondered if they had an abnormal number of accidental kills within these particular walls, what with all the Simes gone hyperconscious to avoid seeing them and all the Gens struck with sudden pain and fear because they either closed their eyes and immediately tripped and fell, or kept their eyes open and had to see the paint. The Sime officer who met him led him to a small office, and gestured at a chair in front of the desk. Jogn sat down in the chair and the Sime officer sat down opposite him. Jogn noticed the box of donuts on the filing cabinet nearby. He was glad this officer was not finding physiological differences a barrier to fitting in with his Gen coworkers. Any lingering appetite Jogn may have felt himself was thoroughly suppressed by the fact that the office was also painted green. The Sime studied the selyn-holo on his ID card, then his nager. "This all current?" "Yeah." He examined the officer's badge in turn. Officer Tetje, yep. So far the exchange of information had progressed well. Now for the tricky part. Tetje copied the information onto the form, then handed the card back to him. "Nature of the complaint?" "I was pickpocketed. On the train this morning." "What'd they get," said the Sime officer, not looking up from where his pencil poised over the correct line on the form. "My selyn." Now Officer Tetje did look up, expression absolutely blank. "You mean you were attacked." = "No, pickpocketed," repeated Jogn. "I don't know who it was and I didn't feel it happen." The police officer fixed him with a half-lidded stare that compressed years of weary patience into several poignant seconds. "Somebody stole your selyn and you felt nothing," he repeated, deadpan. "Well how could I? I'm only a GN-3, I never feel selyn movement." He could fairly see a headache erupt in the Sime's temples. He could almost feel sorry for the guy. But the bottom line was, somebody had his selyn and he wanted it back! "Look, I really depend on the money I get from donating. I don't know what I'm going to do if I can't get it!" After a moment, the police officer rubbed his eyes with two ventral tentacles and stared listlessly at the form he must have memorized long before. "All right. When was the last time you saw... zlinned...." he paused, in irritation. "...THINK you had your selyn?" "Well, I had a perfectly ordinary donation last month." "Last month? That doesn't give us much to go on, mister Smiht. Can't you remember any time sooner?" "How should I know? I can't zlin myself!" The Sime officer gritted his teeth and counted to eighteen (Jogn saw each finger and tentacle give a minute twitch, in order), then gave a restrained sigh. "All right, how about this. Who are the Simes you know who have seen you most recently? We'll ask them a few questions, and find out whether you were high-field when they last saw you." A gruelling forty five minutes later, there were six names on the list. Nobody Jogn knew particularly well, or who saw him very often. Jogn just didn't know that many Simes. "We'll look into every lead," said the officer at last, "but I really doubt someone was able to take your selyn by simply bumping against you on the train. I mean... did you feel tentacles? Any lateral contact?" "Er... no, but - what other explanation could there possibly be?" "Well, the legitimate channels have been overworked lately. Maybe the Center channel took your selyn and then forgot she did it." "Well that's hardly a reassuring thought!" exclaimed Jogn, peevishly. "How am I supposed to go in next month and try to relax with that on my mind?" "The good news is, if it's that, we can find out pretty quickly. Any discrepancy in the amount of selyn collected, and the Tecton will be investigating it themselves. I can make a few phone calls and find that out. The other possibility is that your selyn disappeared before today." "What?! How?" A horrible thought occurred to him. "Maybe someone broke into my house at night and stole my donation while I was sleeping!" he cried. "Uh - anything is possible," said the officer, sounding more depressed by the moment, "but we won't know for sure until we've performed a full investigation." = Jogn Smiht left the station feeling rather unoptomistic, and took the train home. His roommate-situation for the month was situated at the edge of town, close to the border. It was a lovely neighborhood of steep, terraced hills and a largely Gen population. Exactly the kind of place he shouldn't have been able to afford even at half price. But his roommate-situation-of-the-month was also his girlfriend-of-the-month, and had only made him pay a third the cost. He fervently hoped that she would also be generous enough to forgive his rent being late, despite the fact his reputation had preceded him and she'd given him a stern warning. Sadly, he was not to be so lucky. He reached his block to find a small crowd gathered to watch his girlfriend throwing things out their third-story window. = "What are you doing?!" he shrieked, seeing that their lovely, steeply terraced hill and largely Gen neighbors had already been festooned with the majority of his possessions. "Where's my rent?" she demanded hotly. "But - !" "I knew it!" she crowed. "You don't have it, do you!" "But it's not even the end of the day yet!" he cried desperately. "It's the end of yesterday, and that's when rent was due!" "Yesterday?!" he exclaimed, flabbergasted. "But I thought it was today!" "I'm sick of your lousy excuses. You're out of here!" She heaved his prized bowling-ball out into the air, then slammed the window shut with a resounding thump. Jogn threw himself sideways and narrowly avoided being clipped on the head by the ball. Continuing his momentum, he proceeded to trip over his own feet and fall headlong into the street, where an approaching squad car had to screech to a halt to avoid hitting him. A heavyset female Gen cop leaped out of the car and shouted, "Jeesus mister, are you all right?" "Yesterday??" Jogn repeated weakly, not wanting to believe. Because if yesterday was rent day, then... "Great jumping buckets of squid guts!" bellowed the cop, shocking Jogn out of his daze. He jerked his head up just in time to hear her scream, "Somebody's gotta stop that ball!" =0D About two hours later, Jogn Smiht found himself once again in the tiny, wretchedly green office sitting across from Officer Tetje and his box of donuts. The officer appeared to have aged five years since that morning. The donuts, however, still appeared reasonably fresh. "Mister Smiht," said the Sime tiredly. He looked at the papers he had been given along with Jogn. His eyebrows rose theatrically. "Disturbing the peace... littering... destruction of public property... disruption of the ambient... and vagrancy???" "I can explain," said Jogn desperately. "You see, my bowling ball was rolling down these stone terrace things - and then - crash! - and she was trying to catch it - I almost got hit by the patrol car - and I really thought rent wasn't due til today!" He clamped his eyelids shut, blocking out any sight of the particularly bilious color of the walls, and felt the panic slip away. His babbling stopped soon after. "Well, I guess that pretty much covers it," said Tetje dryly, putting the papers aside. "Look, Mister Smiht. I ran a pretty thorough check on you this morning. You seem like an ordinary guy. A little down on your luck, maybe lacking direction in life, but basically an honest citizen." Jogn grimaced. There was nothing illegal about being born and raised to the freewheeling life of the unemployed GN-3, but a lower-class citizen was a lower-class citizen. It would take someone like a cop to have any real sympathy for him, and lots of cops also felt sympathy for hookers, hobos and juvenile delinquents. "Now these kinds of complaints aren't something we like to hear about people," continued the Sime officer, "but since you've never had anything on your record before today, I'd be willing to forget about all of this if you can promise me you'll try to straighten up and fly right. Okay?" "Sure, officer," said Jogn, relieved he had gotten off those crazy charges, and trying to feel penitent so it would show up in his nager. "And I really would have paid my rent, except for my selyn being missing, and... and it turns out the rent was due yesterday, which caught me by surprise." Tetje frowned. "Well the first of the month... that's pretty common." "Well my donation day is on the first too. That's why it's always so hard to make ends meet." "But if your donation day was yesterday, then why were you - oh. You thought today was the first?" There was pity in the officer's eyes. Jogn squirmed, making Tetje squirm too. "I guess so. I dunno what happened, unless I somehow made my donation yesterday and forgot all about it." He didn't think that was too likely, and Tetje shook his head also. "No, I checked with Tecton recordkeeping, and they show you as having not made a donation this month at all." Jogn shrugged helplessly, wishing he could start the day over again, or maybe his whole life. "Well, you're free to go. Do you have a place to stay tonight?" "Oh yes," said Jogn, struggling to bring some pep into his voice and nager so the Sime wouldn't decide to help him out by = giving him a free night in jail. "I'll be all right. Thanks for all your help, officer!" He left quickly, and caught the train once again, this time headed for his regular haunt which was another Gen neighborhood but a much worse one. =0D With a heavy sigh, Jogn Smiht stepped off the train and trudged the short distance to the familiar facade of the Sotted Sow. = This was a Gen bar, though its patrons regularly joked that only a Sime in hard need would have taste buds dead enough to enjoy the beer. He pushed in the door, and was enveloped in the usual dimness, warm stench, claustrophobia, and the slurred greetings from his friends. "Hey, Jogn!" exclaimed Mel. "What the hell are you doin' back here, now that you're a rich man?" "Yeah what's the matter," chimed in Danye, "Didn't your, heh heh heh, Donation go according to plan?" Obviously they thought they were terribly funny, although in his present state of mind Jogn could hardly see why. "Yeah yeah, whatever," he said, waving them off. Much as he needed friends right now, he needed a beer even more. It had definitely been one of those days. Slumping onto a stool at the bar, he pulled out his purse, prepared to scrape together the last of his credit to this purpose. Whoa!! He did a double-take, and thrust his eyes closer to his open purse, as if further inspection would reveal its contents to have changed. No; by every visual test he knew, he had about three times as much cash on him as he had ever seen in his life. Shen, he thought in desperate disbelief as he snapped the purse closed and jammed it back into his pocket. I must have missed an episode! His frantic mind fumbled through his most recent memories, and he found there did seem to be blank spot that began with sitting down on this very stool only a day or two before. Trouble was, he couldn't remember whether it was one day or two. "Did I lose a day?" he exclaimed out loud, wonderingly. During this unguarded moment, the obnoxious Mel pushed his way over to Jogn's side, trailed by his sidekicks. "So how did it go with the lovely Boteeka?" asked Mel lewdly, twirling his hips with an adroitness that made the rest of his greasy, unshaved self seem all the more revolting. = "I have no idea what you are talking about," said Jogn, who was beginning to suspect he wasn't going to like the explanation, either. "Oh, you liar, you," snickered Mel. "You just don't want to admit you got down and dirty with her afterward." "After what?" asked Jogn, impatiently. "And who in the world are you talking about?" "You know, that rogue channel disguised as a Sime prostitute, who said she'd take your donation for five times what the Center would," explained Danye helpfully. = "Uh?!" cried Jogn, aghast. But it all made a horrible sort of sense. "You don't remember any of this?" broke in Kip, amazed. "Well you were pretty drunk after all." "Maybe she was one of those Distect channels trolling for loose Gens, like I read about in the newspapers," suggested Danye, who actually meant tabloids. "I can't believe I'd do something like that!" moaned Jogn. "How in the hell did she decide to pick on me anyway?" And how could he have been drunk enough to forget an entire day and night, and somehow not be hung-over? Or - unnerving thought! - could the rogue have healed him before setting him loose? = "You zlin like a special guy, Jognny-my-boy," leered Mel. "In addition to remarking on your obvious sexual charms, she said you're going to qualify next month as a GN-2." Jogn planted his forehead painfully on the peanut-littered bar and tried to take deep breaths. It was far too late, of course, for a simple admission that his life was completely out of control to do him any good. "Hey, don't take it so hard, bud. Now that you'll be GN-2, you can afford your own apartment! Who needs girlfriends anyway? Here, have a beer on me." Mel grabbed a nearby half-empty stein and slopped it onto the bar next to Jogn's head, then went off whistling, entourage en tow. Jogn dragged himself up and drained the mug in one gulp, heedless of its origins and awful flatness, then walked out of the bar. He walked directionlessly down the darkened sidewalk, with bits of broken peanut shell stuck to his face and absolutely no idea where he was headed. Wherever it was, before he got there, he got mugged, roughed up and his purse stolen by a gang of Gen thugs. Afterward he staggered to the nearest intersection and managed to flag down a passing cop. =0D At this hour, the station lobby was darkened and quiet. The nauseating green gauntlet of the hallway, however, was mercilessly well-lit. Jogn helplessly remembered the taste and feel of flat beer going down his throat and his stomach turned. The Sime cop who'd picked him up snarled in annoyance and dragged him the rest of the way to Officer Tetje's office. Tetje's eyes widened as he saw who it was. "You again?! Can't you stay out of trouble for half a day?" "I was mugged," Jogn said lamely. "They got everything." Tetje sighed, waved the other officer away, and pulled a fresh report form from the basket. "Are you all right?" "Oh yeah, I guess," said Jogn, watching the officer fill in the personal information lines by memory. As a rule, he thought, that was probably not a sign one's life was running smoothly. "Can you describe what was stolen?" "Uh... My Donor ID card, and a brown leather money-purse. I had...." He named the cash sum that had been present. Tetje nearly drove the pencil through the desktop. "You had how much?!" "I can explain," said Jogn hastily. Actually, he probably should have explained this before. But better late than never, or so his mother had always told him, usually as she was leaving to take the rent to the landlord-of-the-month. "I found out where my selyn went. My friends tell me that while at the bar, I was approached by a rogue channel pretending to be a prostitute." At least Jogn hoped she was only pretending. In fact he firmly decided to put that thought away as something he did not have the resources to explore fully at this time. = "Really?" asked Tetje, suddenly interested. "Can you give us a good description?" He grabbed another form. "Uh... well I suppose my friends could...I don't remember any of it," Jogn admitted, embarrassed. There was nothing worse than being embarrassed around a Sime, because they knew exactly how you felt. On the plus side, though, they didn't like the feeling any more than you did. "I wouldn't even have believed them except I looked in my purse and saw all the money. I must have been drunk out of my skull. I guess that's how I ended up being mixed up on which day it was." "This does explain a lot," agreed Tetje, writing furiously. "Let me get the names of your friends who were witnesses. First of all, when was this?" "Well it would have been yesterday morning at 8am." The cop paused and looked up at him in disbelief. "You were at the bar at 8am?!" "Well, I usually have a couple of beers before heading in to donate," Jogn explained. "To get mellow, you know." =0D All things considered, Jogn thought, Officer Tetje was remarkably patient with him. The officer even offered to give Jogn a ride to the poorhouse on his way home. "Look, Mr. Smiht," said the Sime gently, as he dropped Jogn off. "You're a nice guy. You have a lot of friends and I kind of like you myself. But you really have to get it together, you know?" Jogn sighed. "I know. Thanks for all your help, officer Tetje." He got out of the squad car and stood before the poorhouse gates, watching the taillights recede with a feeling of utter glumness. To think he had ended up in the poorhouse: that place intended as a one-month stopover for Gens in distress, but which was universally regarded as a revolving-door rut for those perpetually unable to get with the ambient. The Sime was right... he really did have to straighten out! But when the car was gone, Jogn broke suddenly into a big grin. Things had to be better next month. For one thing, he'd be earning as a GN-2! =1A= --PART.BOUNDARY.0.10104.emout05.mail.aol.com.857524171-- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 19:39:07 -0600 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Susan Ross Moore Subject: Re: the workshopping topic At 10:10 AM 3/4/97 -1758, you wrote: Leigh, I haven't gotten anything labeled WORK since we unsnarled my latest snafu. BTW, I've got a copy of "Dark Passion" (think that was the name) on order at my Walden's. It still isn't in. Sigh. Susan >We finally have a discussion going strong in the WORK: topic. However I >have a feeling that one or more people who want to be in the writers' >workshop may not be getting the posts. If you are in this situation, please >e-mail me at kimmel@siu.edu and let me know so that we can get your topic >mask profile fixed. > > >"England expects every man to do his duty." ---- Admiral Lord Nelson > >Leigh Kimmel -- writer, artist and historian >kimmel@siu.edu http://members.tripod.com/~kimmel/LHKwebpage.html >keeper of the Sime~Gen mailing list, simegen-l@siu.edu >Ask me how to order the new S~G novel!!! > > ******************************************************************* IMPORTANT: My new e-mail address is smoore@iquest.net My new area code will be 765 -- the rest of the number is unchanged. In memory of Babylon 5 and X-Files fan Stephanie (Goblin) Etmanski, who passed away January 17, 1997 In memory of guitarist Marcel Dadi, who died in the TWA Flight 800 plane crash July 17, 1996 -- on my birthday ******************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 21:10:35 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Kaas Baichtal Subject: Re: WORK: That having been said.... Oh no! I didn't realize that wasn't replying directly to her. I am so sorry everybody! ack! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 18:50:05 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Anne Pinzow Subject: I stand corrected Jacqueline informed me that she never said she was from another planet. What she did say was that, and I quote, "I make no exagurated claims to being human." But there are those among us who still know that she is from another planet. Readya, A.P.Pinzow "In real life, people don't often see the logic of the situiation. In fiction they have to." "Freedom entails responsibility." Belfry Books We publish the books the wise buy. Look for me at http://members.aol.com/Quillscren/quillnscreen1.html. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 16:02:10 -0800 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Tony Zbaraschuk Subject: Re: schools and evolution In-Reply-To: <331C805B.4C6@ccd.cccoes.edu> from "R. K. Marsh" at Mar 4, 97 01:04:43 pm Rhdona said: > Hi, people. Let's please not assume that ALL fundamentalists are knuckle- > dragging anti-intellectuals. > I'm a fundamentalist, AND I'm an intellectual, AND I'm an educator, AND I'm > a fan...and I've kept quiet on this topic so far, but now it's getting rude > and personal. Hear, hear! Everything she said applies to me as well. Tony Z ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 22:45:20 -0600 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Rosemary Clement Moore Subject: Web Question Hi, Listfolk. I have been lurking and enjoying the scintilating conversational threads here while I catch up on the scads of fiction posted on the Ambrov Zeor page. I am having a problem, though. When I link to the Tecton Central page, my browser (E-Mosaic) takes me there, but all I have is a blank, white page. Is this a problem reading the page, or...? I am woefully inexperienced at 'net surfing, and would appriciate any theories. (Because I would really like to visit this page!) Also, when I tried to link to the Householding Registry page, from JL's home page, I got a message that the address couldn't be found. The same thing happened when I typed in the URL manually. Thanks in advance! RCM Rosemary Clement Moore Was--> texas.rose@genie.com My new address is --> rcmoore@icsi.com ++++Watch this space: Signature in Search of a Tagline!++++ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 18:05:21 -0800 Reply-To: torun@gte.net Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Torun Almer Organization: Starfire Subject: Re: So you want a day off?! Dear Karen, Great article. Certainly puts going to work into perpective. Torun ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 03:24:54 EST Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jean Lorrah Subject: WORK: Conflict Just thought I'd let you know that overnight a little bit more of the romance novel came to me, but not that most important missing piece. I now know that Jonal was the second son. His older brother was raised to inherit the lands and title. Jonal is a scholar. Since his brother died, he has tried to learn to live up to his new responsibilities, but he has never wanted to be a warrior. I also have a working title, IN LOVE AND WAR (as in "all's fair in--"). BUT, I am still missing that all-important conflict between Jonal and Clare. The problem is, it has to be simple. Not only not as complex as the Sime~Gen conflict, but even simpler than the Savage Empire conflict. And until I find it, this book is going nowhere. Jean Jean1@Juno.com. This is a temporary e-mail address. I will return to A21711F@msumusik.mursuky.edu on March 24, 1997. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 06:52:45 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: M Petrino Subject: Re: WORK: That having been said.... Glad to see someone has a Sime Gumshoe :) Will get to the story today. Peace, Marianne ninetiger@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 07:39:25 EST Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jean Lorrah Subject: Re: Web Question Dear Rosemary, I know