========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 01:01:46 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Donna Subject: Darkover:Jacqueline Bounces (Long) Your two reporters tonight are: Donna Burns and Cherri Munoz. EXTRA!!! EXTRA!!! READ ALL ABOUT IT!!! The party is over but we are still bouncing. teehee. Friday night: After Jacqueline and Anne arrived around 3pm.(of course we had arrived the day before), we set up the table in the huckster's room and started selling right away. To thank Ronnie Bob for all the help he has given the list , a group of us took Julia (his friend) and him out to dinner at the hotel restaurant. Jacqueline and everyone was excited about the new interest in Sime/Gen books. The conversation was lively and extremely interesting. Don't you wish you were there? After dinner, we retired to our room to don our costumes. WE WON!!! Jacqueline told us that this is the first time, as far as she knows, that any Sime/Gen entries have won. Our costumes were Channel and Companion. Cherri had made floor-length matching capes and had made tentacles. The capes and shirt worn under them were embroidered with the symbol of the House of Tien. Our award entitled: Honored for Excellence in Quality ~ Beginner. We were so excited that we partied until the wee hours of the morning. We hereby deny anything that anyone says about what happened during those hours. Saturday, we (including Mary Lou Mendum) were very dedicated selling books, zines, and recruiting new Founding 400 Members. And THEN came Saturday evening..... As almost everyone is aware, it is a tradition to celebrate Faith Day. The House of Tien hosted it this year with the usual candles and food gifts. Since we were also celebrating Jacqueline's signing a 6 book contract for the Biblical Tarot series, the food and drinks provided were a little more elaborate than usual. You could even hear the pop of the champagne bottle as the contract was being endorsed. Afterwards, everyone toasted Jacqueline and her editor, Anne Pinzow. While Anne can't confirm this, while she was out of the room, Jacqueline and Cherri BOUNCED several minutes!!!!! Yes, it's TRUE!!! EVEN JACQUELINE BOUNCES!!!!!!!!! I saw it with my own eyes, ask Ronnie Bob. (Donna speaking here.) OF COURSE!!! We were so excited that we partied until the wee hours of the morning. We hereby deny anything that anyone says about what happened during those hours. Traditionally at Darkover, at midnight on Saturday, they sing the Hallelujah Chorus and everyone is decked out in costume. We were still in our Tien shirts and saw Hannah in an outstanding glittery outfit including puffy page hat. The music was fantastic and the conversation was terrific. See above for the rest. teehee. Sunday: Sold more books, counted everything, packed everything, and closed up shop. Hope Jacqueline found her keys. Ronnie Bob bought a very neat Hannah pictured based on Mahogany Trinrose. The party was winding down. We all said our good-byes and gave each other a last hug. Time for us to go our separate ways. That's it from your very tired, on-site reporters who may actually go to bed sometime tonight (even though it is almost 1am EST....10pm PST---teehee) Donna (Boy, when I unlurk...I unlurk!) and Cherri (still bouncing with no plans to quit in the near future.) PS. Already looking forward to next year. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 09:06:53 CST Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jean Lorrah Subject: temporary e-mail Dec. 2, 1996 Hi! Juno has been dead for 24 hours now. The service number is still sending the same recorded message as yesterday, saying they expect to have the problem fixed "sometime tonight." So for the moment I have subscribed via my old university e-mail system, and will unsub when/if Juno gets back up. I missed any messages to the list from December 1, 1996. Jean ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 11:11:51 -0600 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Leigh Kimmel Subject: Re: Darkover:Jacqueline Bounces (Long) All this is great news -- now if the trip to DarkoverCon will lead to more people putting their names on the Founding 400 list and signing up here it will truly be successful. "England expects every man to do his duty." ---- Admiral Lord Nelson Leigh Kimmel -- writer, artist and historian kimmel@siu.edu http://members.tripod.com/~kimmel/LHKwebpage keeper of the Sime~Gen mailing list, simegen-l@siu.edu Ask me how to order the new S~G novel!!! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 11:26:38 -0600 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Leigh Kimmel Subject: Re: temporary e-mail >Dec. 2, 1996 >Hi! > Juno has been dead for 24 hours now. The service number is still >sending the same recorded message as yesterday, saying they expect to >have the problem fixed "sometime tonight." > So for the moment I have subscribed via my old university e-mail >system, and will unsub when/if Juno gets back up. I missed any messages >to the list from December 1, 1996. Jean There's been almost no activity on the list over the weekend. In fact I don't think there was _any_ listmail yesterday. I suspect that most of our subscribers who weren't at Darkover were otherwise away from their computers due to family visits, etc. And you really wouldn't need to unsubscribe -- you could just set that address to no mail by sending the command SET SIMEGEN-L NOMAIL via that account. Then it would always be there waiting for you if you need it again. (Unfortunately this means that Karen Litman is without connection to the list, unless she's gotten an AOL address) It seems that there's been a lot of computer problems in the last month. I've finally got my replacement hard drive for the one I bought a month ago and turned out to be defective. I'm just hoping that the bad one will run just enough that I'll be able to transfer stuff from the old one to the new one. If not, I'll just have to re-load all my software and restore my data from my backups (at least I've got everything backed up, so I shouldn't lose data). I sure hope that these computer problems wind down -- all of us could use a break. "England expects every man to do his duty." ---- Admiral Lord Nelson Leigh Kimmel -- writer, artist and historian kimmel@siu.edu http://members.tripod.com/~kimmel/LHKwebpage keeper of the Sime~Gen mailing list, simegen-l@siu.edu Ask me how to order the new S~G novel!!! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 00:03:40 EST Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jean Lorrah Subject: Juno is back Okay--Juno is back on-line, though now it's hard to get in as 900,000 people try to pick up 24 hours' worth of mail! Glad you all had fun at Darkover. I got Chapter 9 of the website book finished, and learned to use a neat animation program I downloaded from the WWW. I am now ready to create the animation Jacqueline wants of a Sime hand with moving tentacles--but someone has to make three drawings (preferably in color) of the hand with the tentacles in three different positions. This is an _incredible_ program! I have put the little movie I made out of three photos of Robert Plant into the cache for my academic website, but only those of you with lots of RAM and a fast connection should try to look at it. Unless I hear from several people that the movie runs respectably on a top-of-the line system, I will remove it from the cache and not even try to put it on the page. As slowly as it loads on my own system, I would not have the patience to wait for it. But it runs just great when I call it into my browser from my own hard drive. It's a big file because it is made up of three photographs plus whatever the program added to make it work. A drawing would be much less complex and make a smaller, faster-loading file. I know you guys aren't interested in Led Zeppelin, but please take a look at this just to see how morphing three stills creates the illusion of actual movement. When you load it, look at the information, usually down in the lower left corner, telling what percentage has loaded. It won't start to move until it is 100% loaded. I think once those of you who have systems that can handle it see the effect, you'll agree that this program will produce a great animation from three drawings that are actually _designed_ to go in sequence! The URL is http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4165/robmo2.gif Watch Robert's hair move, and imagine tentacles instead! Jean Jean1@Juno.com Visit my websites: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3439/ http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4165/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 02:01:52 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: "Hannah M.G. Shapero" Subject: Left Over from Dark Over In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19961202060146.0095e720@pop.radix.net> Dear Simes and Gens: It was good to meet a number of you at DarkoverCon. Many of us may not be aware, for instance, that Ronnie Bob dresses all in BRIGHT RED so that he looks like a large version of one of Santa's elves. It is cute and cheerful. I like to know the faces and voices behind these words on the screen. Thanks Ronnie Bob and friend for buying my Ercy Farris portrait piece. I would like to say that two of my Sime-Gen art pieces were NOT bought at the DarkoverCon art show and are still available for purchase. They are: THE TRANSFER. A leotard-clad Sime woman with bushy brown hair and gleaming eyes is taking transfer from a shirtless, jeans-wearing male Gen. Around them are waves of pink and lavender energy depicting the surges of nageric force. The art is mixed media (colored pencil, tempera, etc.) on brown paper. Art size is 10"x7" matted to 14" x11". Recommended price: $30. Second piece: NAGER AND NEED. A half-dressed Gen woman and Sime man are either about to enter into transfer/erotic action or have just done so. A green nager floats about the Gen woman, while the Sime man strokes her upper arm with a dreamy expression on his face. Mixed media on grey paper. Art size is about 8"x7" matted to 14"x11". Recommended price: $20. Anyone who might want this art, please e-mail me privately. Yours, Hannah M.G.Shapero ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 10:47:15 EST Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Lynda M Tatad Subject: Re: computer problems & Darkover Hi everyone! I have Juno like Jean, but I didn't have an alternate address to use. I've gotten used to getting messages from the listserv as well as from my parents (they also have Juno). So, no access to my email on Sunday was hard enough, then on Monday I couldn't get to our computer because my husband was fixing a friend's computer & unhooked ours to have access to hers with our moniter. Usually it's very handy having an engineer for a husband, he can troubleshoot & fix most problems we've come across. He fixed her problem last night but hadn't rehooked ours. So, this morning (feeling email withdrawal starting to hit me) I decided to hook our computer back up myself. So, here I am! I loved reading about the Darkover Council from Donna & Cherri. Did anybody take pictures at Darkover & is there anyway to share them with all of us. We're getting a second phone line in 2 weeks, so I can check out all the web sites soon. I don't like doing it too much right now, I don't want to tie up the phone line in case of emergencies. Were there new names added to the Founding 400 list??? I hope so! Congratulations to Jacqueline & Anne on the "Biblical Tarot" series contract! Lynda Tatad ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 15:55:55 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg Subject: SET SIMEGEN-L NOMAIL -- [ From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg * EMC.Ver #3.0 ] -- SET SIMEGEN-L NOMail ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 16:03:05 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg Subject: Re: temporary e-mail -- [ From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg * EMC.Ver #3.0 ] -- Leigh wrote: > (Unfortunately this means that Karen Litman is without connection to the list, > unless she's gotten an AOL address) > Yes, Karen has an AOL account - but not sub'd to the List as far as I know. I've lost exactly what her screenname is. Live Long and Prosper, Jacqueline Lichtenberg !!!!!!!Ask me how to get the next Sime~Gen novel!!!!!!!! I have a new eddress - zeor@ucs.net Check out my home pages: http://www.netins.net/showcase/fidonet/jl.htm and http://www.lightworks.com/MonthlyAspectarian And my SF Review column at MonthlyAspectarian's site. AND ask me about the new Sime~Gen Listserve and Web Page http://www.aviary.share.net/~sam/zeor.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 16:02:55 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg Subject: TECH: JL's new eddress mysteries. -- [ From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg * EMC.Ver #3.0 ] -- The ISP I'm with has given me the email address zeor@ucs.net That ISP is also known as j51.com so I am also known as zeor@j51.com There are a few mysteries left in cyberspace. Some of you may be seeing my return address as zeor@j51.com - don't let it bother you. I am zeor@ucs. net and AmbrovZeor@aol.com And please folks, USE TOPIC FILTERS on your subject line. There are a lot of people on this list who will drop off if we can't tame the mail flow. Leigh will start TOPIC MASKS for us this month, but it won't help if we don't use them. Live Long and Prosper, Jacqueline Lichtenberg !!!!!!!Ask me how to get the next Sime~Gen novel!!!!!!!! I have a new eddress - zeor@ucs.net Check out my home pages: http://www.netins.net/showcase/fidonet/jl.htm and http://www.lightworks.com/MonthlyAspectarian And my SF Review column at MonthlyAspectarian's site. AND ask me about the new Sime~Gen Listserve and Web Page http://www.aviary.share.net/~sam/zeor.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 16:03:10 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg Subject: Calling All Gamers -- [ From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg * EMC.Ver #3.0 ] -- Dear Folks: We have another renewal (don't get excited this happens every few years) of professional interest in making a Sime~Gen game. With my software woes, I've lost track of who among you all is into gaming. I need you all to email me privately with your credentials, biographies, anything establishing an association with gaming. Someone recently approached me about doing an email based or internet based game. Someone on this list knows enough about gaming to design a Sime~Gen game. I need contact with this/those folks! I don't want professionals to make a total mess of this if it ever gets done. But I'd really love to be able to provide gaming opportunities in this universe for those who like to game - board, roll playing - whatever. Live Long and Prosper, Jacqueline Lichtenberg !!!!!!!Ask me how to get the next Sime~Gen novel!!!!!!!! I have a new eddress - zeor@ucs.net Check out my home pages: http://www.netins.net/showcase/fidonet/jl.htm and http://www.lightworks.com/MonthlyAspectarian And my SF Review column at MonthlyAspectarian's site. AND ask me about the new Sime~Gen Listserve and Web Page http://www.aviary.share.net/~sam/zeor.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 16:03:14 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg Subject: Re: Juno is back -- [ From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg * EMC.Ver #3.0 ] -- Jean writes: > I know you guys aren't interested in Led Zeppelin, but please take a look at > this just to see how morphing three stills creates the illusion of actual > movement. When you load it, look at the information, usually down in the lower > left corner, telling what percentage has loaded. It won't start to move until > it is 100% loaded. I think once those of you who have systems that can handle > it see the effect, you'll agree that this program will produce a great > animation from three drawings that are actually _designed_ to go in sequence! > On animation: the homepage of my ISP UCS.NET just added animation. It's kinda jerky, and I've no idea what they used to get it going, but it loads slower now than before, and doesn't start to move until it's all loaded. That's http://www.ucs.net On the Sime~Gen website, I think animation should be used only deep inside on things that would be examined only by those who know what site they're in and are there to enjoy Sime~Gen. Give people something to read while the animation loads and it shouldn't be bad at all. Now, where can we get 3 animation cells of tentacles in motion? Keyboarding on a computer? Knitting? Gripping a Gen arm? Live Long and Prosper, Jacqueline Lichtenberg !!!!!!!Ask me how to get the next Sime~Gen novel!!!!!!!! I have a new eddress - zeor@ucs.net Check out my home pages: http://www.netins.net/showcase/fidonet/jl.htm and http://www.lightworks.com/MonthlyAspectarian And my SF Review column at MonthlyAspectarian's site. AND ask me about the new Sime~Gen Listserve and Web Page http://www.aviary.share.net/~sam/zeor.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 16:03:25 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg Subject: Re: Darkover:Jacqueline Bounces (Long) -- [ From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg * EMC.Ver #3.0 ] -- Cherri&Donna wrote: > EVEN JACQUELINE BOUNCES!!!!!!!!! I saw it with my own eyes, ask Ronnie Bob. > (Donna speaking here.) > JL here: Well, you see, the Sectuib in Zeor, being possessed of that famous Farris compassion, carefully judged that desperate measures were called for when Sectuib Tien began underperforming her stats. Therefore Sectuib Zeor administered a carefully calculated measure of in order to bring the ambient nager into spec. Achum! > Sunday: Sold more books, counted everything, packed everything, and closed up > shop. Hope Jacqueline found her keys. JL here: Anne found my keys. In her coat pocket. That woman is amazing. She never loses anything. But sometimes things disappear for years. We were lucky this time. As for Hannah's artwork - well, RBW snatched one of the three but as Hannah already posted to the list, there are two more. All three are drop-dead gorgeous, gut-grabbers, and well worth what Hannah is asking. Personally, as a publicity-starved writer, I'd rather see them displayed at a few more conventions before anyone buys them, but frankly, I don't think they'll last long. If you buy either of the ones left, be SURE not to hang it in a stairwell - whiplash and total loss of control of one's feet ensues upon unexpected viewing! Live Long and Prosper, Jacqueline Lichtenberg !!!!!!!Ask me how to get the next Sime~Gen novel!!!!!!!! I have a new eddress - zeor@ucs.net Check out my home pages: http://www.netins.net/showcase/fidonet/jl.htm and http://www.lightworks.com/MonthlyAspectarian And my SF Review column at MonthlyAspectarian's site. AND ask me about the new Sime~Gen Listserve and Web Page http://www.aviary.share.net/~sam/zeor.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 16:03:19 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg Subject: Re: computer problems & Darkover -- [ From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg * EMC.Ver #3.0 ] -- Lynda Tatad asks: Were there new names added to the Founding 400 list??? I hope so! Congratulations to Jacqueline & Anne on the "Biblical Tarot" series contract ! JL here: Yes, and as soon as I sort and enter them and send the new names to RBW for our master database, and run a new count, I'll let everyone know what the current count is. I think it's topped 60. And I thought I saw another item subject lined Founding 400 in my mailbox on AOL which I have not downloaded yet. I think I'm finally going to get this all organized. I keep getting that surge of triumph that everything's solved, and then something else goes wrong. At least with the list posts downloaded via zeor@ucs.net I can see who sent the posts! So the problem was never my mailer software - it was AOL itself! I think. Probably. Also, Cherri and Donna were so busy bouncing they forgot to mention that the table grossed about double what it did last year. They did an amazing job - and when they totalled up the cashbox, they found a mistake and went away drooping from imperfection. ONLY THEY WERE RIGHT ON THE EXACT PENNY! When I separated the money, I discovered they hadn't taken into account the change money that had been in the pouch for starter-cash. When I put the starter-cash back in the money pouch, the rest came out to the penny. There's only one other person that's achieved that when running the table for us - and that's Karen Litman. We should revive the Digen Farris Award for Meritorious Service next year. That's one Marge Robbins used to give out when Householding Chanel hosted Faith Day. She used to make up a certificate on her computer. Anyone want to invent an award certificate for us? Oh, and the winner of the drawing for the Daniel R. Kerns manuscript was LARRY HAMMERSLEY, and he's not on email. I've written to Kerry to send him the manuscript. He might actually like it. Live Long and Prosper, Jacqueline Lichtenberg !!!!!!!Ask me how to get the next Sime~Gen novel!!!!!!!! I have a new eddress - zeor@ucs.net Check out my home pages: http://www.netins.net/showcase/fidonet/jl.htm and http://www.lightworks.com/MonthlyAspectarian And my SF Review column at MonthlyAspectarian's site. AND ask me about the new Sime~Gen Listserve and Web Page http://www.aviary.share.net/~sam/zeor.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 16:01:40 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg Subject: NEWS:Policy On Founding400 -- [ From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg * EMC.Ver #3.0 ] -- Expanded recipient data: cc: Silverstein@whafh.com \ Internet: (silverstein@whafh.com) Dear Folks: This is also for Workshoppers. (Karen: copy for Kerry et. al.) When I started the Founding 400 list of character names for the novels, all I had in mind was NAMES. Because of the nature of novel writing, I can't accept biographies because - as I've been trying to teach our workshoppers - everything, but absolutely everything from the lampshades to the Officer Titles in a novel MUST BE DERIVED FROM THEME. People started sending me biographies to go with their names. I started a Microsoft Word file that will become the back panel of 400 names in the book - and from which I can draw minor-character names. And I made it so that I could put in biographies. But with so many so quickly entered, there was no way to organize it, so I started shifting it to a Windows cardfile file. But the biographies wouldn't fit. Worse, some people began asking if they'd already registered, or sent in or discussed their character names late. Looking up and cross-indexing names is for databases not word processors. But then I quickly saw that 400 of these things would be just an impossible workload. So I changed a header in the database to Naztehr, and started entering character-names by the order listing. But that crashed the database's report writing facility. I wrote a new report with the Wizard - and got the novel-ordered count. Whew! Hours of time spent on all this. Now coming home from Darkover with another ten or more of these names and addresses to enter (which I haven't done yet because of another software woe that I just finished fixing I hope) I'm looking at this problem of the biographies and I have to be honest about this. It just isn't going to happen. I have no use for the biographies. I might make one or two exceptions for creative reasons, but not because of the Founding 400 perq program. When I write, I don't create the biography or characterization of a character FIRST and then write the story around that. I create the character as I go along, tailoring the biography and the description and the personality to fit the required parameters of the story-conflict-plot-theme. Other writers may do it in a different order. How it's accomplished doesn't really matter. All that counts is that in the finished product, story- conflict-plot-theme-character is all of one piece - a single, integrated whole. If I have in mind a character with a peculiar biography, and it's my character and I gave him that biography, I'm likely to change anything and everything about him as I write (including his name if it's too close to another character's name and it seems confusing). So I can't work with other people's biographies. I think I can manage the minor-character name list - but nothing "deeper" than that. In my mind, absolutely everything in a novel (including the gender of the characters) remains totally fluid and absolutely changeable until the copyedited manuscript crosses my desk. After the copyedited leaves my hands , then every word is graven in stone and can't be changed (except for typos) because when you get galleys back the only thing you can change without being charged money for it is typos. For those who don't know about how a novel goes through production it's like this: 1.Submission draft (which authors laughingly label final) 2. Editorial changes ordered by the editor (this can be 2 rounds; usually only one) 3. Copyedited - this time the ms comes back with book designer and copyeditor marks all over it, and flags with questions to be answered - continuity gliches, mis-used words, malpropisms and everything marked up. 4. Galleys The contract SAYS you are to have suchandso length of time to go over the Copyedited and the Galleys - but you never do. So you should figure a 72 hour turnaround on copyedited and 24 to 36 hours on the galleys. When one of those in-production jobs arrives, it's drop everything and do it right now. And my most wonderful and indispensable proof reader, Katie Filipowicz- Steinhoff now lives on the other side of the continent from me and is starting a very demanding job and getting used to being married. So, I will not keep track of any of the biographical material that's sent to me - just the names in the database. You'll find out about your character's biography and personality, if any, when you read the book. Since these will be minor characters, there would be very little on them in print - possibly not even gender - and after the book is published you all will be free to write fanzine stories based on that character using your choice of full biography. Knowing that right through the copyedited point I have to be able to change anything about any character from anything to anything - that's the way it has to be. So once again, if you have signed up for the Founding 400 and said you would pay $25 for a hardcover, then you are entitled to the perq of having your own name or persona name put on the list in the back of the book labeled The Founding 400 - just the name. All names on this list will be ambrov Zeor because they are founding the first Householding. There is no ambrov anythingelse at the time of the Founding. I will use this list of 400 to draw the names of minor characters in the novel - and I will create the biographical details to fit the overall theme of the novel - which hasn't been chosen yet. Until the theme is chosen, there's no way to know what biographies would fit. And remember, even the THEME can be changed at the last minute. It's hard, but I've done it before out of necessity - and might do it again, though reluctantly. But sometimes your subcoonscious is trying to say something other than what your conscious has decided to say - and to "finish" a novel, one must get the two to agree to say the same thing this time anyway! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 13:22:57 -0800 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Donald Jaramillo Subject: Website stuff (Was: Re: Juno is back) In-Reply-To: <19961202.192212.12230.5.Jean1@juno.com> On Tue, 3 Dec 1996, Jean Lorrah wrote: > Okay--Juno is back on-line, though now it's hard to get in as 900,000 > people try to pick up 24 hours' worth of mail! 900,000? WOW! I didn't realize Juno was that popular! ;-) > Glad you all had fun at Darkover. I got Chapter 9 of the website book > finished, and learned to use a neat animation program I downloaded from > the WWW. I am now ready to create the animation Jacqueline wants of a > Sime hand with moving tentacles--but someone has to make three drawings > (preferably in color) of the hand with the tentacles in three different > positions. Ah, that's exactly what I was talking about earlier! Which program are you using? I use GIF Constructor Set by Alchemy Mindworks. > This is an _incredible_ program! I remember how it felt when I built my first GIF animation! :-) > It's a big file because it is made up of three photographs plus whatever > the program added to make it work. A drawing would be much less complex > and make a smaller, faster-loading file. More than you might know, Jean. A lot of it has to do with the nature of the GIF compression algorithm (I've been doing a lot of reading on it, namely at a site caled "Creating Killer Websites" (http://www.killerwebsites.com)--it's ultimately a plug for the author's book of the same name, but there's a lot of useful information). The compressed size of a GIF depends upon how many different colors occur on a line. The fewer colors, the smaller the GIF. That's one reason that JPG is used for most phtographs (unless one needs the interleafing or transparency). An animated drawing would have fewer colors, so it will end up being MUCH smaller! > I know you guys aren't interested in Led Zeppelin, but please take a look > at this just to see how morphing three stills creates the illusion of > actual movement. When you load it, look at the information, usually down > in the lower left corner, telling what percentage has loaded. It won't > start to move until it is 100% loaded. I think once those of you who > have systems that can handle it see the effect, you'll agree that this > program will produce a great animation from three drawings that are > actually _designed_ to go in sequence! I'll have to take a look. Did you morph it as well as animate it? I think that that can be a very useful supplementary tool. I currently use WINMorph. I have one project I've been working on, to have a GIF animation morphing through each chakra mandala in sequence. It's worked out pretty well, but it's rather large (I that's just for the first few mandalas). > The URL is http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4165/robmo2.gif > > Watch Robert's hair move, and imagine tentacles instead! Jean Used correctly, GIF animation can be GREAT! Follow Your Bliss! Don Companion-in-Underdraw ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ddraig@primenet.com "Life is not a problem to be solved, http://www.primenet.com/~ddraig/ but a _Mystery_ to be lived!" http://www.osb.net/users/drake/ http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4102 -- Joseph Campbell ------Ask me how to get the NEXT Sime~Gen novel!!----- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 13:48:56 -0800 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Donald Jaramillo Subject: Re: Left Over from Dark Over In-Reply-To: On Tue, 3 Dec 1996, Hannah M.G. Shapero wrote: > Dear Simes and Gens: > > It was good to meet a number of you at DarkoverCon. Many of us may > not be aware, for instance, that Ronnie Bob dresses all in BRIGHT RED so > that he looks like a large version of one of Santa's elves. It is cute and > cheerful. I like to know the faces and voices behind these words on the > screen. Thanks Ronnie Bob and friend for buying my Ercy Farris portrait > piece. I would like to say that two of my Sime-Gen art pieces were NOT > bought at the DarkoverCon art show and are still available for purchase. > > They are: THE TRANSFER. A leotard-clad Sime woman with bushy brown > hair and gleaming eyes is taking transfer from a shirtless, jeans-wearing > male Gen. Around them are waves of pink and lavender energy depicting the > surges of nageric force. The art is mixed media (colored pencil, tempera, > etc.) on brown paper. Art size is 10"x7" matted to 14" x11". Recommended > price: $30. > Second piece: NAGER AND NEED. A half-dressed Gen woman and Sime > man are either about to enter into transfer/erotic action or have just > done so. A green nager floats about the Gen woman, while the Sime man > strokes her upper arm with a dreamy expression on his face. Mixed media on > grey paper. Art size is about 8"x7" matted to 14"x11". Recommended price: > $20. > > Anyone who might want this art, please e-mail me privately. > > Yours, Hannah M.G.Shapero > I have an idea, Hanna (though I haven't cleared it with anyone else). Would you be willing to post some of your work on the website? For those which have sold (I assume you have a phtographic record), it could be our only chance to see them. For those which have not sold, it would provide a bigger market. I'm not talking about online ordering, but your e-mail address would be there. I'd love to see a gallery of as much S~G art as we can handle there! (Besides that, I'd love to see these pieces!) Follow Your Bliss!! Don Companion-in-Underdraw ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ddraig@primenet.com "Life is not a problem to be solved, http://www.primenet.com/~ddraig/ but a _Mystery_ to be lived!" http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4102 -- Joseph Campbell ------Ask me how to get the NEXT Sime~Gen novel!!----- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 19:03:16 EST Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jean Lorrah Subject: Re: SET SIMEGEN-L NOMAIL Wrong address, Jacqueline--your message went to the list instead of the listserv. Try listserv@siu.edu. Jean Jean1@Juno.com Visit my websites: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3439/ http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4165/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 19:25:32 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Lisa W Subject: Re: Darkover:Jacqueline Bounces (Long) In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19961202060146.0095e720@pop.radix.net> Oh it sounds like you all had a wonderful time! How I wish I could have been there!!!! Congratulations on winning for your costumes! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 20:27:23 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Donna Subject: Re: computer problems & Darkover At 04:03 PM 12/3/96 -0500, you wrote: >-- [ From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg * EMC.Ver #3.0 ] -- >Also, Cherri and Donna were so busy bouncing they forgot to mention that the >table grossed about double what it did last year. They did an amazing job - >and when they totalled up the cashbox, they found a mistake and went away >drooping from imperfection. ONLY THEY WERE RIGHT ON THE EXACT PENNY! > Very cool, feeling much better here. Thanks for letting us know. >>There's only one other person that's achieved that when running the table >for us - and that's Karen Litman. > We (Cherri, Mary Lou, and I) are in very good company then, but how could we help that with all the terrific people who have staffed the table. >Oh, and the winner of the drawing for the Daniel R. Kerns manuscript was >LARRY HAMMERSLEY, and he's not on email. I've written to Kerry to send him >the manuscript. He might actually like it. What do you mean MIGHT, he'll love it!!!!!! Bouncing along, Donna Burns hozdmb@radix.net Sime/Gen, Pros, S&H, UNCLE, UFO, Sentinel, FK (Diehard), ST K/S, Highlander Ask me about the new SIME/GEN list! Want to know about the possibility of a NEW Sime/Gen Book? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 23:00:03 EST Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jean Lorrah Subject: Re: TECH Animation Dec. 3, 1996 In answer to Don's questions, the program I used to animate Robert Plant is Vidcraft's GIF Animator. There is a link from my website to the site where the program can be downloaded. The program has very bad documentation--you have to keep going to the help screens to discover the missing information. Once you get it figured out, though, it is extremely easy to use. There are, I think, seven different ways to animate with this program. The one I used for the Plant animation is indeed Morph--that's why it actually appears to move instead of dissolving or having a curtain close, etc. I'm glad to hear that drawings will produce much smaller animated files, though I figured as much from the fact that other people's animations that I've picked up for my sites are relatively small files. Great news from Geocities: everybody who already has a free site there gets an extra MB as a Christmas present! That doubles the space I have for each or my sites. Lois took a look at my animation and was impressed--and she is not easy to impress. As a reminder, the animation is not yet linked, and won't be if it turns out to be too long a load on even fast systems. Check it out by going directly to http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4165/robmo2.gif I don't agree with Jacqueline that we should bury animations deep on the website, where casual browsers won't find them. We don't want too slow a load, but we could use a good animation right on the opening page, to attract browsers to stay and look around. If I get the right kind of simple pictures with just a few colors, the one with moving tentacles should be a small, fast-loading file. Jean Jean1@Juno.com Visit my websites: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3439/ http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4165/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 00:58:02 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: "Hannah M.G. Shapero" Subject: Re: Left Over from Dark Over In-Reply-To: > > Anyone who might want this art, please e-mail me privately. > > > > Yours, Hannah M.G.Shapero > > > > I have an idea, Hanna (though I haven't cleared it with anyone else). Please, please SPELL MY NAME RIGHT!!!!! I signed it just above in the quoted message, and yet you persist in misspelling it! My name is Hannah with a final H. I go BALLISTIC when someone misspells my name. > Would you be willing to post some of your work on the website? They might not copy so well. And in my experience at least, the great majority of artwork on websites looks like MUD. I can barely discern the details. Of course, this could be from my own low-rent browser, which I am stuck with for now (financial and political reasons). The artwork I showed at DarkoverCon is on brown and grey-colored paper and would be exceptionally hard to copy. For those > which have sold (I assume you have a phtographic record), it could be our > only chance to see them. It would be easier for me to just circulate a "catalog" of color samples by snail-mail. I do have photographic records of every artwork I've done, including these. For those which have not sold, it would provide > a bigger market. I'm not talking about online ordering, but your e-mail > address would be there. I am disappointed that all the Sime-Gen art I showed at Darkovercon was not bought. It was offered at rock-bottom prices at the convention - one at $20, another at $10 and yet was still not bought. These are special convention prices not available when there is no chance of bidding them up. Even one bidder would get them at that minimum bid. Yet they were not bought. I am disappointed that the fans at Darkovercon - who are some of the most enthusiastic - did not buy. Are their finances so impoverished, or their lives so disorganized, that they cannot spare $20, or even $10, to get an artwork they like? These people are not teenagers or college students, but adults with regular jobs. This lackluster buying at the Con suggests to me that I not do any more Sime-Gen art unless explicitly commissioned to do it. I have found Sime-Gen art exceedingly hard to sell at other, more general convention art shows. > I'd love to see a gallery of as much S~G art as we can handle there! If someone commissions something, I'd be glad to do some SG art with the high contrast and brighter colors necessary to show up on the web. > (Besides that, I'd love to see these pieces!) I could send you photos once I have them developed, if you send me your snail-mail address. Then you could circulate the photos to anyone who wishes to see them either through color copy or just passing them along. I am a firm believer in simple, primitive methods of communication like postal mail. Primitively, Hannah M.G.Shapero ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 23:14:03 -0800 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Cousin Cherri Subject: Re: Darkover:Jacqueline Bounces (Long) Lisa W wrote: >Oh it sounds like you all had a wonderful time! How I wish I could have >been there!!!! Congratulations on winning for your costumes! THANKS!!!! Wish you could have been there too. {{{{LISA}}}} Cousin Cherri ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 23:18:42 -0800 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Cousin Cherri Subject: Re: computer problems & Darkover Jacqueline wrote: >>Also, Cherri and Donna were so busy bouncing they forgot to mention that the >>table grossed about double what it did last year. They did an amazing job - >>and when they totalled up the cashbox, they found a mistake and went away >>drooping from imperfection. ONLY THEY WERE RIGHT ON THE EXACT PENNY! WOW!!!!! Donna wrote: >Very cool, feeling much better here. Thanks for letting us know. YES!! Thanks for letting us know. {{{{{Jacqueline}}}}{ Jacqueline wrote: >>>There's only one other person that's achieved that when running the table >>for us - and that's Karen Litman. Donna wrote: >We (Cherri, Mary Lou, and I) are in very good company then, but how could we >help that with all the terrific people who have staffed the table. YES! ------ Cousin Cherri Keeper of Vachon's Guitar Janette on the SKL list **** Lucius Fanaticus**** The Cherri Munoz Fan Club: See the Web site at: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/1732/cindex.html Want to know about the possibility of a NEW Sime/Gen Book? Katya's Sister ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 11:23:24 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Anne Pinzow Subject: Re: Darkover:Jacqueline Bounces (Long) In a message dated 96-12-03 21:43:15 EST, you write: JL here: Well, you see, the Sectuib in Zeor, being possessed of that famous Farris compassion, carefully judged that desperate measures were called for when Sectuib Tien began underperforming her stats. Therefore Sectuib Zeor administered a carefully calculated measure of in order to bring the ambient nager into spec. Achum! Anne here: Looked to me like it was the other way around. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 11:24:02 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Anne Pinzow Subject: Re: Left Over from Dark Over Hannah, I had brought some craft pieces, magic wands, which Sharon Jarvis had done. There was nothing like them at the artshow and no one even bid. I walked around and looked at the bid sheets. Very, very few pieces went to auction. I was surprised myself. I'll tell you something that I've also noticed lately and I think that it bears on the sales. The big malls that I pass around here are nearly empty while the little cut-rate stores are doing a fantastic amount of business. So, please take into account that it's that time of year when people are thinking Christmas gifts (and Chanukah gifts), that many of the Sime/Gen people flew in and would have to make special arrangements to ship the artwork, and that in general, not much art sold. I hope that you reconsider and continue to show Sime/Gen work at Darkover. For some, while they can't afford to buy, it's the only place they get to see and appreciated visuals of this world. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 12:08:57 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg Subject: Re: Darkover:Jacqueline Bounces (Long) -- [ From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg * EMC.Ver #3.0 ] -- Lisa Warner wrote: > > Oh it sounds like you all had a wonderful time! How I wish I could have been > there!!!! Congratulations on winning for your costumes! Yes, I think all of us had a wonderful time - the best I think was on Friday when various Listers first saw the people they'd been corresponding with. What gave me a particular thrill was that the Wiles showed up - they're new to Sime~Gen fandom, but not to Sime~Gen. They're really NICE people and I wish I hadn't been so busy that I didn't get a chance to talk to them. I really wish they'd joined us for dinner Friday night - that was a blast! Karen Litman is mulling over the prospects of engineering Darkover into her life next year - it's quite a project you know to clear that weekend and save up the money and make that trip. Cherri is also about to get down-and- dirty about reconstructing the universe to allow her to get there even if she has to fold space in half to do it (and don't put it beyond her; she's an engineer twice over you know.) I still haven't entered the Founding 400 we picked up at Darkover, and a lot of flyers walked away and may come back in the mail. It's Wednesday and the POBox will get picked up today. Dataentry just isn't my thing. But we may top 70; next stop 100 - and that's one-quarter of the way. Next Darkover, we may have a really big contract signing to memorialize. We'll have a contest that will make the current dance-craze look like kids' stuff. Live Long and Prosper, Jacqueline Lichtenberg !!!!!!!Ask me how to get the next Sime~Gen novel!!!!!!!! I have a new eddress - zeor@ucs.net Check out my home pages: http://www.netins.net/showcase/fidonet/jl.htm and http://www.lightworks.com/MonthlyAspectarian And my SF Review column at MonthlyAspectarian's site. AND ask me about the new Sime~Gen Listserve and Web Page http://www.aviary.share.net/~sam/zeor.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 11:25:28 -0800 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Cousin Cherri Subject: Re: Darkover:Jacqueline Bounces (Long) > JL here: Well, you see, the Sectuib in Zeor, being possessed of that famous > Farris compassion, carefully judged that desperate measures were called for > when Sectuib Tien began underperforming her stats. Therefore Sectuib Zeor > administered a carefully calculated measure of in order to > bring the ambient nager into spec. Achum! > >Anne here: Looked to me like it was the other way around. ROTFLMAO!!!!! Heh! Heh! Heh! {{{{ANNE}}}}} ------ SaySha ambrov Tien Keeper of Vachon's guitar Cousin Cherri, BlairBabe *** Lucius Fanaticus*** I'M A COUSIN!!!! WHAT DO YOU EXPECT!!!! FK * SKL * BtK * VAL * Sentinel * NVC * WF * LH * CSS * Sime/Gen * HL I don't WANT a new one. I LIKE that one. Sime/Gen - The place where having tentacles will create conflict and angst. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 17:37:38 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg Subject: NEWS:Founding 400 new COUNT -- [ From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg * EMC.Ver #3.0 ] -- Ok, after Darkover and today's pob pickup - and several via email - we now have 69 of the necessary 400 to Found Zeor. Some have ordered pb's but wouldn't spring for the hc - I like honesty. That's a trait among this group - not to promise what you can't or won't do. Altogether, there are now 78 names and addresses in this database. Some have ordered 2 copies of the hc, some no hc at all. Most who have ordered the hc order form and are thus entitled to have a name in the novel have not registered a name for me to put. I may end up making up a few hundred names to complete this list so it can be published! Oh, and two people who dropped their flyer in the box we had on the table at Darkover (you SHOULD HAVE SEEN THAT BOX! It was for surgical rubber gloves and made by a company called SIME in bright blue letters. It's a real company.) also asked for more flyers to distribute which I'll send out ASAP . Live Long and Prosper, Jacqueline Lichtenberg !!!!!!!Ask me how to get the next Sime~Gen novel!!!!!!!! I have a new eddress - zeor@ucs.net Check out my home pages: http://www.netins.net/showcase/fidonet/jl.htm and http://www.lightworks.com/MonthlyAspectarian And my SF Review column at MonthlyAspectarian's site. AND ask me about the new Sime~Gen Listserve and Web Page http://www.aviary.share.net/~sam/zeor.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 16:38:49 EST Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jan B Wiles Subject: Re: Darkover:Jacqueline Bounces (Long) Jacqueline Lichtenberg wrote: >What gave me a particular thrill was that the Wiles showed up - >they're new >to Sime~Gen fandom, but not to Sime~Gen. They're really NICE people >and I >wish I hadn't been so busy that I didn't get a chance to talk to them. > I >really wish they'd joined us for dinner Friday night - that was a >blast! Awww, thanks, Jacqueline! Wish I could have come to the dinner, too, but I found out about it just after Edwin & I had finished a *very* late lunch . Sigh. There'll be another chance! Jan Wiles, aka Patir ambrov Tien N&NPacker, surprised FoD and Sime/Gen fan janwiles@juno.com **** Curiosity killed the cat - but I helped! Sorry, Sidney... ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 20:23:10 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Lisa W Subject: Re: Darkover:Jacqueline Bounces (Long) In-Reply-To: <199612040714.XAA18612@spain.it.earthlink.net> Maybe next year if there are any memberships still available and if I can find a way to get there!!! That sounds like the best convention! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 20:55:53 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Lisa W Subject: Re: Darkover:Jacqueline Bounces (Long) In-Reply-To: <199612041708.MAA22388@j51.com> I would just love to get to Darkover next year even though I do have to work on that Friday alas!!!! My coworker gets to have the day off next year bercause I had it this year. Maybe I could time travel? Oh boy that would be wonderful!!!! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 18:49:56 -0800 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Cousin Cherri Subject: Re: Darkover:Jacqueline Bounces (Long) >Jan Wiles, aka Patir ambrov Tien Patir ambrov Tien!!! Bounce Bounce Bounce YES!!!! {{{{{JAN}}}}} ------ Cousin Cherri Keeper of Vachon's Guitar BlairBabe Janette on the SKL list FK * SKL * BtK * VAL * Sentinel * NVC * WF * LH * CSS * Sime/Gen Cherri FC: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/1732/cindex.html **** Lucius Fanaticus**** ** CyberTwin to Donna ** Katya's Sister ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 23:56:00 EST Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Kit Plowman <71223.115@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Kit's back Ok...I've been offline for a month...and CI$ sent back all my mail \ So...if you've sent anything to me in the last month, please resend, also, if there's any info I need, I'd appreciate that too. UZF, Kit ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 23:55:51 EST Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Kit Plowman <71223.115@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Re: Subject Line Management Message text written by Jacqueline Lichtenberg >I finally got the patch from ConnectSoft that fixed the crashing, but in the mess somewhere I installed something where I chose the SHOW ONLY THE LIST ADDRESS IN THE FROM FIELD FOR ITEMS FROM A LISTSERVE. I think that was installing Delrinna but I'm not sure. Now I can't find where and change it BACK. It also has a few other odd problems.< Sectuib...what about reinstalling the program, you should be able to reset the options that way. UZF, Kit ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 02:24:50 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: "Hannah M.G. Shapero" Subject: Re: Left Over from Dark Over In-Reply-To: <961204112402_573027932@emout12.mail.aol.com> > time of year when people are thinking Christmas gifts (and Chanukah gifts), > that many of the Sime/Gen people flew in and would have to make special > arrangements to ship the artwork, and that in general, not much art sold. > > I hope that you reconsider and continue to show Sime/Gen work at Darkover. > For some, while they can't afford to buy, it's the only place they get to > see and appreciated visuals of this world. OK, yeh, I probably will continue doing art from the SG world. But this time I'll make it brighter, more "solid" and higher contrast, so that it can go onto your Web site and thus be seen by lots of people. I'm a professional and though it sounds crass I can't work on something if I have no possibility of selling it. But I am assured that my leftover pieces will indeed find a home with some enthusiastic Sime/Gen fan. HMGS ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 04:02:44 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: "Hannah M.G. Shapero" Subject: Re: Left Over from Dark Over Comments: To: Donald Jaramillo In-Reply-To: > I will not misspell Hannah's name. I will not misspell Hannah's name. thanks. thanks. thanks. thanks....... OK, it's cool now. you can put down the chalk. Maybe I should put the correct spelling, etc. in a sig and have it there all the time. HMGS Try my Fannish Name, "Xenon Skylight!" You can spell it any way you want! Xenon ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 07:33:58 EST Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jean Lorrah Subject: Re: Left Over from Dark Over Hannah writes, "I'm a professional and though it sounds crass I can't work on something if I have no possibility of selling it." This is the same professional attitude that Jacqueline and I have been trying to explain. Notice how both of us, finding that we cannot sell fiction in the current market, have moved to non-fiction. Jacqueline and Anne, congratulations on the Tarot book contract! Jean Jean1@Juno.com Visit my websites: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3439/ http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4165/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 07:21:29 -0800 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Mary Mendum Subject: Re: Work: Exclusive relationships In-Reply-To: <961127174636_1386310462@emout04.mail.aol.com> Folks, I missed out on the first round of this exchange, because I no longer have access to email from my parents' house. My Dad managed to crash the partition with Internet access, and he hasn't had the energy to fix it. It happened the day before he had an episode of brain swelling, so he may have done something peculiar like changing all his passwords and then forgotten all about it. Anyway, I'd like to put in my two cents on the value of exclusive relationships and the Tecton's policy of discouraging them in the context of transfer (but not sex). I have to say that I think Jacqueline makes a better case for Tecton policy than Jean and Leigh do against it. However, the whole discussion seems to be based on what I consider a false premise: that enduring love and concern between two individuals is defined as the absence of other relationships. In other words, that you can only love one individual, and if you like (or love) someone else also, the first relationship is somehow not valid. Actually, Jean, I'm a little surprised to find you taking such a position, since your Trek fan novel--wan't it called Full Moon Rising?--has the perfect illustration that exculsivity and commitment are two different issues. I'm referring to the section where Sarek, out of friendship and compassion, has sex with three other women, with Amanda's full knowledge and consent. It doesn't affect their marriage at all, since their commitment to each other has nothing to do with their relationships with others. One small caveat here--I'm drawing a clear distinction between the above instance and the more common kind of adultury where lies and deception are used to hide the fact that a promise of exclusivity has been broken. However, it's the broken promise that damages the marriage, not the fact that the adulterous partner has a relationship with someone else. In cultures where marriage doesn't imply an exclusive sexual commitment, outside sexual relationships wouldn't put a strain on a marriage. The Tecton couldn't prevent its channels and Donors from forming close, loving friendships if it wanted to--and I doubt it does, since they would be a strong factor in keeping those channels and Donors happy and productive. However, this is an entirely separate issue from exclusive transfer bonds which are fatal when severed. I doubt Den's commitment to Rital would be stronger if they had an orhuen. In fact, it might be less strong, since there would be the constant, survival-instinct anxiety that no matter how sincerely the other intended to be there for transfer, something would come up. I expect that's why the breakstep is a Zeor tradition--just to demonstrate at intervals that such emergencies CAN be survived. Risa and Sergi did the same thing, as I recall. Furthermore, Klyd seemed to think that they had a very strong dependency, not a torluen, which would reduce much of the psychological my-survival-is-at-stake-here jealosy which might have stressed their relationship to the breaking point otherwise. Anyone else want to weigh in with an opinion? Mary Lou ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 11:33:56 EST Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jan B Wiles Subject: Re: Darkover:Jacqueline Bounces (Long) >>Jan Wiles, aka Patir ambrov Tien > > Patir ambrov Tien!!! > >Bounce Bounce Bounce YES!!!! > >{{{{{JAN}}}}} {{{{{Cherri!}}}}} Actually, I mean: {{{{{Sectuib SaySha}}}}} Jan Wiles, a.k.a. Patir ambrov Tien N&NPacker, FoD, and Sime~Gen addict\\\\\I mean fan! *** "The cat came back, the very next day...the cat came back, he just wouldn't stay away....Go Sidney!" ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 11:49:18 -1758 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Leigh Kimmel Subject: Re: Left Over from Dark Over >Hannah writes, "I'm a professional and though it sounds crass I can't >work on something if I have no possibility of selling it." > >This is the same professional attitude that Jacqueline and I have been >trying to explain. Notice how both of us, finding that we cannot sell >fiction in the current market, have moved to non-fiction. Jacqueline and >Anne, congratulations on the Tarot book contract! Jean > Yet at the same time our culture also sends us plenty of loud and clear messages that if we write primarily for market interests, we become artistic prostitutes. Believe me, I've heard _plenty_ of them, from people I really respected and wanted to do right by. Sometimes the reason I get so aggravated is that I feel like the rules are constantly changing and I can't figure out what I'm supposed to do because as soon as I do what they tell me, they tell me that no, they want something different. "I do believe my crucifixion before the public has about reached its limit." ---- Admiral Husband E. Kimmel Leigh Kimmel -- writer, artist and historian kimmel@siu.edu http://members.tripod.com/~kimmel/LHKwebpage keeper of the Sime~Gen mailing list, simegen-l@siu.edu Ask me how to order the new S~G novel!!! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 11:56:20 -1758 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Leigh Kimmel Subject: Re: Work: Exclusive relationships >Actually, Jean, I'm a little surprised to find you taking such a position, >since your Trek fan novel--wan't it called Full Moon Rising?--has the >perfect illustration that exculsivity and commitment are two different >issues. I'm referring to the section where Sarek, out of friendship and >compassion, has sex with three other women, with Amanda's full knowledge >and consent. It doesn't affect their marriage at all, since their >commitment to each other has nothing to do with their relationships with >others. > I think there's one huge difference here that's being overlooked -- the motivation for the breaking of exclusitivity. In Sarek's case it was friendship and compassion (rather like some of the Darkovan attitudes towards sex and marriage) -- his actions grew out of his caring for them as persons (whether they're Earth-humans or Vulcans or whatever). However the Tecton's system is exactly the opposite -- it's _impersonal_ and treats the people in it as objects to be used. People may find themselves having to be transfer partners to total strangers who then vanish out of their lives forever. Enormous difference. "I do believe my crucifixion before the public has about reached its limit." ---- Admiral Husband E. Kimmel Leigh Kimmel -- writer, artist and historian kimmel@siu.edu http://members.tripod.com/~kimmel/LHKwebpage keeper of the Sime~Gen mailing list, simegen-l@siu.edu Ask me how to order the new S~G novel!!! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 15:34:20 -0800 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Mary Mendum Subject: Re: Left Over from Dark Over In-Reply-To: On Thu, 5 Dec 1996, Leigh Kimmel wrote: > >Hannah writes, "I'm a professional and though it sounds crass I can't > >work on something if I have no possibility of selling it." > > > >This is the same professional attitude that Jacqueline and I have been > >trying to explain. Notice how both of us, finding that we cannot sell > >fiction in the current market, have moved to non-fiction. Jean > > > Yet at the same time our culture also sends us plenty of loud and clear > messages that if we write primarily for market interests, we become > artistic prostitutes. Believe me, I've heard _plenty_ of them, from people > I really respected and wanted to do right by. Sometimes the reason I get so > aggravated is that I feel like the rules are constantly changing and I > can't figure out what I'm supposed to do because as soon as I do what they > tell me, they tell me that no, they want something different. Leigh Kimmel Leigh, Consider for a moment: are the people who make those accusations of "artistic prostitution" professional artists themselves--people who actually make a living by selling the art they produce? Or are they disgruntled wannabe writers, who are looking for excuses for their failure to sell? In my experience, the people who are most obsessed with "artistic integrity" are the ones who can't or won't learn to produce professional-quality art, and who are seeking to blame anyone but themselves for their failure. There's nothing wrong with producing a piece of writing that makes the artistic point you want--but a real pro knows that it has to have a plot, stay on the conflict line, and obey all the other little rules of good storytelling if it's going to sell. And if it doesn't sell, it can't communicate the artistic point to anyone, and you might just as well have spent the time you put into writing it washing dishes. That aside, why are you wasting so much time agonizing over what other people think about your artistic integrity? Does it really matter what nonwriters and wannabe writers think about the realities of writing publishable stories? After all, the people who are telling you to "show artistic integrity" by refusing to revise your stories to fit an editor's standards are the same people who are eagerly buying and reading the stories the editor does buy--precisely because those stories DO abey the rules of good storytelling. In the long run, the only person who can pass judgement on your artistic integrity is you. No one else's opinion matters--so why not forget about conforming to other people's overly romantic ideas of what an artist is and does, and concentrate on learning to tell a good story? It will do far more to advance your writing career than any amount of "artistic integrity". Mary Lou ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 12:40:58 -0800 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Cousin Cherri Subject: Re: Darkover:Jacqueline Bounces (Long) >>>Jan Wiles, aka Patir ambrov Tien >> >> Patir ambrov Tien!!! >> >>Bounce Bounce Bounce YES!!!! >> >>{{{{{JAN}}}}} > >{{{{{Cherri!}}}}} Actually, I mean: > >{{{{{Sectuib SaySha}}}}} teehee YUM!!!!! I LOVE HUGS!!!! ------ Cousin Cherri Keeper of Vachon's Guitar BlairBabe Janette on the SKL list FK * SKL * BtK * VAL * Sentinel * NVC * WF * LH * CSS * Sime/Gen Cherri FC: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/1732/cindex.html **** Lucius Fanaticus**** ** CyberTwin to Donna ** Katya's Sister ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 16:39:29 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Anne Pinzow Subject: Re: Left Over from Dark Over In a message dated 96-12-05 14:25:29 EST, Leigh Kimmel wrote: Yet at the same time our culture also sends us plenty of loud and clear messages that if we write primarily for market interests, we become artistic prostitutes. Actually, writing non-fiction is a way of earning a living while writing fiction and hoping that it will sell. Just because authors are selling non-fiction doesn't mean that they aren't writing non-fiction. It just means that they are also providing what the publishers will buy until they find a publisher who will buy fiction. You have to write ahead of the market, not at the market. The tide will turn back to fiction, but right now, from a publisher's and agent's point of view it's a lot easier to sell non-fiction. Smart authors are writing for the market three years from now, not the present day market. Sometimes the reason I get so aggravated is that I feel like the rules are constantly changing and I can't figure out what I'm supposed to do because as soon as I do what they tell me, they tell me that no, they want something different. Then make up your own rules. A couple of years ago I was collaborating on a script (which I sold) with three other writers. I was making vast changes, (that's what I was brought in to do). Anyway, I wanted to get a "reality check" on my changes because I knew I had gotten too close to the work. So I showed the script to Jacqueline. About the only changes she told me to make were in punctuation, she took out commas right and left. Anyway, I made the changes and then showed the script to another writer and she had me put the commas back. This went back and forth for two more tries until I decided THWI and I punctuated the way I wanted to and that was that. Play by your own rules. As far as writing goes, I always tell people to write what they want to write but to be aware of the market because the market is also playing by its own rules. Eventually, what you write will sell but you have to have the timing right. For instance, about 10 years ago, horror was in. Now the bottom fell out. But horror will come back. So if what you want to write is a horror story, write it. But don't be disappointed if it's hard to sell. When horror is back "in" you'll be one of the first to be selling your story. Meanwhile, make a living with non-fiction. Readya, A.P.Pinzow "In real life, people don't often see the logic of the situiation. In fiction they have to." "Freedom entails responsibility." Belfry Books We publish the books the wise buy. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 22:09:33 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Margaret Carter Subject: Stories in CZ At Darkover I got a copy of CZ 10th anniversary issue, which has some excellent stories in it. The one I really love is Andrea Alton's "Diversionary Tactic." Using a pen Gen as a narrative POV is excitingly different, maybe even unique. All the stories in this issue were too short, but esp. this one! In fact, it feels like the middle chapter of a novel. Are there more stories about Ruan and Dunbren? If so, where can they be found? Are there some available to post on the web site? What is the proper topic mask for this subject? Or does it fall under a default mode, general Sime-Gen, no topic? (I think there ought to be such a category.) Darkover was esp. special this year. LL&P, Margaret ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 21:59:26 EST Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jean Lorrah Subject: Re: Work: Exclusive relationships Mary Lou claims I said, "that enduring love and concern between two individuals is defined as the absence of other relationships. In other words, that you can only love one individual, and if you like (or love) someone else also, the first relationship is somehow not valid." I never said any such thing--I couldn't have, because I don't believe it. What I did say is that Jacqueline's argument that giving up the relationship of a lifetime because it MIGHT end in pain--or even if it is CERTAIN to end in pain--is a fallacious argument because almost ALL lives end in agony anyway. So why in the world should people give up bliss to avoid pain that is unavoidable anyway? "Risa and Sergi did the same thing, as I recall. Furthermore, Klyd seemed to think that they had a very strong dependency, not a torluen, which would reduce much of the psychological my-survival-is-at-stake-here jealosy which might have stressed their relationship to the breaking point otherwise." Only that snob Klyd Farris would claim that Risa and Sergi are not in torluen. It walks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck. Trust good old Klyd to insist it's a goose! Jean Jean1@Juno.com Visit my websites: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3439/ http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4165/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 23:28:29 EST Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jean Lorrah Subject: Re: Left Over from Dark Over Leigh writes, "Sometimes the reason I get so aggravated is that I feel like the rules are constantly changing and I can't figure out what I'm supposed to do because as soon as I do what they tell me, they tell me that no, they want something different." Join the club! I can't count the number of time this has happened to Jacqueline and me. Jean Jean1@Juno.com Visit my websites: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3439/ http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4165/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 22:52:49 -1758 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Leigh Kimmel Subject: Re: Stories in CZ >What is the proper topic mask for this subject? Or does it fall under a >default mode, general Sime-Gen, no topic? (I think there ought to be such a >category.) General S~G discussion, no topic. "England expects every man to do his duty." ---- Admiral Lord Nelson Leigh Kimmel -- writer, artist and historian kimmel@siu.edu http://members.tripod.com/~kimmel/LHKwebpage keeper of the Sime~Gen mailing list, simegen-l@siu.edu Ask me how to order the new S~G novel!!! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 22:55:27 -1758 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Leigh Kimmel Subject: Re: Work: Exclusive relationships >What I did say is that Jacqueline's argument that giving up the >relationship of a lifetime because it MIGHT end in pain--or even if it is >CERTAIN to end in pain--is a fallacious argument because almost ALL lives >end in agony anyway. So why in the world should people give up bliss to >avoid pain that is unavoidable anyway? > Because many people have the idea that quality of life is measured by the number of years lived, and therefore one should prefer to eek out many years rather than have a few years of glorious living. "I do believe my crucifixion before the public has about reached its limit." ---- Admiral Husband E. Kimmel Leigh Kimmel -- writer, artist and historian kimmel@siu.edu http://members.tripod.com/~kimmel/LHKwebpage keeper of the Sime~Gen mailing list, simegen-l@siu.edu Ask me how to order the new S~G novel!!! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 01:01:36 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: "Hannah M.G. Shapero" Subject: Are professional artists prostitutes? (long) In-Reply-To: > Yet at the same time our culture also sends us plenty of loud and clear > messages that if we write primarily for market interests, we become > artistic prostitutes. Believe me, I've heard _plenty_ of them Well, so have I. And you know what I've learned? That a lot of times those people who call professional artists "prostitutes" are often: 1. amateurs who would never make any money anyway 2. getting their money from another source, so they don't have to make art for a living 3. really pretentious types who fancy themselves "artistes" in a romantic sort of way 4. hypocrites. I grew up in the art world. Even the most abstract and esoteric artists have to deal with a market situation. If not selling to publishers, they have to work with either patrons, who provide money, or dealers, who provide exhibition space and sell the art and take up to 60% (!) of the artist's sales income. "Fine" artists have to answer to this situation just like "commercial" artists. It's just that the marketing process for "fine" arts is more respected. Yes, there are artists out there who are so uncompromising that they will never market their work. These may be geniuses, but NOBODY KNOWS ABOUT THEM because, simply, their work is not read/seen/heard. This is a tough lesson, it took me years to learn it. No marketing, no audience - at least beyond a small group of friends. There is also the rare artist whose work is so ahead of its time, so brilliant that no one understands or buys it, and so he/she works in obscurity. Van Gogh was like this. He never sold a picture in his life, except one, to his brother Theo. His brother supported him. Charles Ives was a composer whose work was so avant-garde for its time that it was barely listened to. It is still obscure, but he is now regarded as one of the greatest American composers. He was an insurance executive during his life. The disadvantage of being one of these unmarketable geniuses is that you are only recognized after you are dead. So I ask you a question: do you want a wider audience, or would you be satisfied that your work is only known among a few friends. The difference between one and the other is marketing and, yes, compromise. > I really respected and wanted to do right by. Sometimes the reason I get so > aggravated is that I feel like the rules are constantly changing and I > can't figure out what I'm supposed to do because as soon as I do what they > tell me, they tell me that no, they want something different. The rules, as I see them, in the art and marketing world are pretty stable. STYLES change, but the basic process remains the same. You have to make a decision as to how professional you want to be with your art/writing. This is not prostitution....though it will involve compromise. It seems to me, as I have read your postings, that you write about an inner world that has become very real to you, almost like a second home, filled with (virtual) people, creatures, and things that are precious to you. You call them your friends. You talk to them and listen to them and write down their stories. You feel that to change the details of their lives just for the sake of selling a story would be like forcibly making a family member get a nose job. You don't want to HURT your characters or contradict "information" that they have given to you in confidence. Yes, I've been there too. So what do you do? One choice: Keep this world just for yourself and the friends who like it, and create another one (or borrow it) which is much more flexible and in which you have less emotional investment, in which you can tell good stories. Another: Sit down with your characters and have a diplomatic conference. Ask them: would you like to be known among thousands of readers? Have a life beyond this little circle? If they say yes, then say: In order to do this, I have to change some things about your lives which an editor (let's assume this is a GOOD editor) says don't make a good sellable story. If the characters (or character) agrees, then you can work things out together. You could say, well, we both know that the facts aren't that way, but for the sake of protecting the innocent we're retelling the story a bit! Some characters can get into this game and even suggest ideas on how this should be done. If the character protests, and says, No, you must NEVER change anything about me or my life just for the sake of selling some trashy fiction! then you might have to move on. And then that character will lose the chance to become more than just a private denizen of a private universe. Another: You can start out with a game and keep it a game....many authors have done this, built whole characters and plots on role-playing game outcomes. Throw the dice: It is a way to keep one's detachment. Another: write non-fiction like Jacqueline and Jean are now doing, and leave the inner world for your own pleasure. Some ideas from Xenon Skylight. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 11:40:39 EST Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jan B Wiles Subject: Re: Left Over from Dark Over >Actually, writing non-fiction is a way of earning a living while >writing >fiction and hoping that it will sell. Just because authors are Is there a way to start small on this and sell an article or two? My writing skills are good enough to earn me a little money while I get enough training and practice for longer stories. I just don't know where/how to start! Thanks in advance, Jan Wiles, a.k.a. Patir ambrov Tien N&NPacker, FoD, and Sime~Gen addict\\\\\I mean fan! *** "The cat came back, the very next day...the cat came back, he just wouldn't stay away....Go Sidney!" ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 11:39:34 -1758 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Leigh Kimmel Subject: Re: Are professional artists prostitutes? (long) The irksome thing is that I _am_ willing to cut a deal and find a compromise position, but generally when I try to work out a compromise position it turns into a dominance squabble. It seems like people will go right past _tons_ of stuff that can be changed and home in on the one detail that is absolutely fixed (for instance it would seriously f*ck up several other stories down the line, or the proposed change would violate the magical or psionic equivalent of the laws of physics) and demand that it be changed. When I try to explain why it can't be changed and let's work around it by changing something else, they only hear "it can't be changed" and become fixated on turning the "no" into a "yes." In other words, forcing my will -- which of course I am going to resist, because I don't like being shoved around. So now it's no longer about "improving the story" but about "who will give way to whom" -- a dominance squabble. Another thing I keep seeing is critiquers who want to issue unilateral commands -- Do this! Change that! -- in the raw naked imperative as though I were their slave girl instead of a free citizen, and then wonder why I'm not just busting wide open with eagerness to obey them. I am much more open to suggestions than orders -- especially when they're preceded by explanations in a neutral, impersonal tone. For example, I'm much more likely to receive something like "it is difficult to figure out all the different technical terms for the different parts of the rigging of a square-rigged sailing ship, and it would be better if you would slow down on them and take a little more time to make clear what each of these different lines and whatnot do" as compared to a command like "stop using all the technical terminology about ship rigging." "I do believe my crucifixion before the public has about reached its limit." ---- Admiral Husband E. Kimmel Leigh Kimmel -- writer, artist and historian kimmel@siu.edu http://members.tripod.com/~kimmel/LHKwebpage keeper of the Sime~Gen mailing list, simegen-l@siu.edu Ask me how to order the new S~G novel!!! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 13:20:48 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg Subject: NEWS:Founding 400 count update -- [ From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg * EMC.Ver #3.0 ] -- As of Friday Dec 6 at noon: 73 of the necessary 400! Closing on the one-quarter mark. Go Gang! Live Long and Prosper, Jacqueline Lichtenberg !!!!!!!Ask me how to get the next Sime~Gen novel!!!!!!!! I have a new eddress - zeor@ucs.net Check out my home pages: http://www.netins.net/showcase/fidonet/jl.htm and http://www.lightworks.com/MonthlyAspectarian And my SF Review column at MonthlyAspectarian's site. AND ask me about the new Sime~Gen Listserve and Web Page http://www.aviary.share.net/~sam/zeor.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 13:17:03 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg Subject: Re: Stories in CZ -- [ From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg * EMC.Ver #3.0 ] -- I don't think there are any more stories about Ruen and Dunbren and we've lost touch with Andrea Alton though I understand she's either got a web site or plans one with a friend selling handicrafts via the web. Linda Whitten and Andrea used to be room mates but every time I've asked Linda about Andrea since this website possibility has come up, Linda has answered my letter and not mentioned Andrea. So I've NO IDEA what's actually going on there. Linda is planning to move back to LA (from Colorado) around April '97. I hope things go well and she gets back in touch with us. She gave me her LA address to use for The Farris Channel order form. They have both been active in the Wiccan and neopagan communities, so perhaps our contacts will stumble across Andrea somewhere along that circuit . Since she is now a professional novelist, she might not want her fan stories placed on the Web. Lisa Waters, who edited and published and contributed to AZ, doesn't want her AZ contributions posted. After cringing my way through AZ 4 with my two stories I want to have posted, LORTUEN and EASY AS HOP SKIP AND JUMP, I can easily understand why. It takes a lot of guts or foolhardy idiocy to expose that stuff to public view! Live Long and Prosper, Jacqueline Lichtenberg !!!!!!!Ask me how to get the next Sime~Gen novel!!!!!!!! I have a new eddress - zeor@ucs.net Check out my home pages: http://www.netins.net/showcase/fidonet/jl.htm and http://www.lightworks.com/MonthlyAspectarian And my SF Review column at MonthlyAspectarian's site. AND ask me about the new Sime~Gen Listserve and Web Page http://www.aviary.share.net/~sam/zeor.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 13:16:23 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg Subject: Re: Are professional artists prostitutes? (long) Comments: cc: Joanne Schechter <102763.1453@compuserve.com> -- [ From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg * EMC.Ver #3.0 ] -- Joanne: this is for the lettercol I think - see if you can retrieve Hannah's glorious missive. Hannah wrote: So I ask you a question: do you want a wider audience, or would you be satisfied that your work is only known among a few friends. The difference between one and the other is marketing and, yes, compromise. JL here: I have a personal approach to this problem because I am in fact both sorts of folk that Hannah describes. I write my first and early drafts - my "sketches" - for myself and you folks on the list, as art for the sake of the love of it. Then I let it cook awhile and ponder the problem of what the real essence of the piece is, and how to deliver that to a wider audience via the currently existing delivery mechanism (mostly during my productive life that's been paper publishing, but I'm gearing up to leave that totally behind and re- adjust how I re-carve a piece to fit the delivery channel). Then I adjust the construct I love to fit the delivery channel (editorial demands) as best I can without losing the real essence of it. That often means sacrificing something I really want to show you. For example, to transform Sime Surgeon from the version we published in the fanzines (that I actually like better and feel is better art) into commercial art that could be published via Manhattan - I had to sacrifice (only because my skills weren't up to the task) all the detailed descriptions of transfer mechanics, the equations, the SCIENCE behind transfer, and the angst caused by the ruthless application of SCIENCE to the far more important ethical and moral realities only people can know or care about. BUT - I managed to pull off a coup of the first order and thumb my nose at Manhattan and they never knew it. First, I won my first award for the version they published - and the cover (ghastly as it was) won an artistic merit award. It's a beautiful piece of art and totally meaningless as far as anything in the story is concerned - and the style gives the opposite impression of what the story is. That hc actually got reprinted. An amazing coup considering all the "good stuff" I managed to sneak by with. THEN this wondrous group of fans doing the fanzines published Sime Surgeon - I thought it would bankrupt and destroy the fanzine operation. We survived the multi-part monstrosity - Sime Surgeon is longer than UNTO. A lot of fans like Sime Surgeon (despite the silly title) better than UNTO. The art behind the writing is better; the writing isn't. I didn't have the skills to do what I was trying to do, but the essence of it is there. AND THEN the fans managed to pull together all the bits and pieces they made me cut out of the final turned in ms (the pieces I cherished for the ART of them and left in, just hoping against hope it would "get by" - it didn't) - so that now, the people who really care about the art behind the S~G universe can have it in all its forms. You can read Sime Surgeon - the story the way I wanted it to be. You can reassemble the submission draft of UNTO, the way I was willing to settle for. And you can also enjoy the commercially recarved version as published. So I delivered more art by conforming to Manhattan than I ever could have by any other method. The published UNTO has brought us fans who have delved deeper and found they liked Sime Surgeon better. What I feel that I've accomplished here with this group of folks is to prove beyond all doubt that the strictures of the commercial marketplace are just plain wrong. We need more proof, I know - and more experiment, and more and more academic investigation (such as Camille Bacon-Smith's work on the folklore culture of Star Trek). But I'm convinced that our Art doesn't fit the commercial channels currently in existence simply because the channels are made wrong. Once a channel of the right shape comes into existence (and it will as a direct result of things like Sime Surgeon when the right people notice what's happened), we will be able to prove that our Art makes more money than theirs, as well as being better art by any criterion anyone wants to apply. That may be a product of the overweaning egotistical Aries/LeoRising mentality I was born with, but it may be that I was born with that peculiar mentality simply because it's the only type of mentality that can do this job for us all. Only the centuries ahead will determine that, so I don't worry about it. Even if we accomplish nothing else - ever - we've already changed the Akashic Record significantly. Sime Surgeon exists. Sime Surgeon was commercially successful in its own teeny-tiny little laboratory flask of an existence. And now the real hope on my horizon is Leigh Kimmel! She's got her teeth into something that is artistically really HIGH VOLTAGE and at this point in her life has fewer skills than I had when I tackled Sime Surgeon the first time. For a little more on the story of that, see my introduction to LORTUEN in Ambrov Zeor #4 - I don't know if that introduction got html'd for posting on the web site. I hope so. I just reread it. I could add a ream of commentary now, 21 years later! (Lisa Waters and I were on a panel at Darkover talking about the early 70's and neither of us had the facts correct!) Leigh Kimmel is a whole lot smarter than me, and perhaps even more dedicated and determined. That alone to me is such an incredible turn-on - it makes me work harder every time I think about it. I want to make the work such that Leigh can get her message out in an artistic glory that will live on beyond all of us. People (even today) look at sf/f as "trash reading" - read-and-toss books. I have always looked at the sf/f field as the highest form of Literature than mankind has ever produced. But I don't include adolescent male action/adventure in my definiton of SF/F , and those who have a low opinion of SF/F generally see the field as nothing but a/a. Until recently, those who have a low opinion of sf/f have been the very people responsible for shaping the delivery channel through which this fiction must flow to its consumers. We had a go-round discussion at the beginning of the VS list discussions (way back in September - ancient history in cyberspace!) on what factors have prevented Sime~Gen from getting the commercial distribution it deserves . Do a contrast/compare between Darkover and Sime~Gen and you will see that all the Darkover novels that are responsible for building its readership base that has allowed it to produce all the anthologies and all the feminist novels and everything else MZB has been able to do with it - all those early novels were absolutely pure adolescent male action/adventure. When we go back to read them today, that's what gives us the sour taste in our mouths - yuck, this is awful! It's childish tripe. BUT - hidden behind the facade there is a hint and clue of what was to come - HERATAGE OF HASTUR and FORBIDDEN TOWER and beyond. At the time MZB published those early novels though, they were fabulously wonderful because they were the very "best" on the market - they had the least adolescent tripe in them of anything you could buy. UNTO was written with MZB's ongoing tutelage developing my skills - as I describe in the introduction to LORTUEN and in UNTO itself. I was attempting to do something with UNTO that MZB hadn't yet done, and eventually did with CATCHTRAP (which she was also working on at the time she was teaching me) and with MISTS OF AVALON which was just a gleam in her eye at that point. With UNTO I was trying to virtually eliminate the action/adventure plot- driving mechanism. That's why Sime Surgeon is "better". In Sime Surgeon there's almost no A/A and virtually no adolescent tripe. To recarve Sime Surgeon for the existing delivery channel, I had to add the action/adventure plot-mechanism, then hide it as best I could. But the reason that Sime~Gen has not ever been "properly marketed" is that it's entire underlying concept blatantly and absolutely defies the strictures placed on SF/F by those who have a low opinion of it and who are responsible for carving the shape of the delivery channel (i.e. aiming all sf/f published via Manhattan at adolescent males - and don't kid yourself, that mentality still controls Manhattan underneath the political correctness ). Sime~Gen is NOT ACTION ADVENTURE - and therefore doesn't exactly fit the delivery channel no matter how well it's disguised. But the VS list and all the website building activity we've generated has attracted attention. There's a chance that The Farris Channel might not have to be marketed "as science fiction" - i.e. it might not have to have an action/adventure cover and cover blurbs and packaging and marketing behind the scenes that readers never know exists that aims all the copies at adolescent male buyers AND NOWHERE ELSE thus completely missing the mature men and women who love this stuff. And therefore, I might not have to write it with an action/adventure plot-driving mechanism. Or at least not exclusively. The thing will have a lot of harrowing action, a lot of battle , a lot of blood and gore and dying and angst galore. But the point and the structure and the theme and the plot are anti-action/adventure. If they let me do it my way, and if it works, then you and I will have changed the world in a way John Burke will have to make a whole tv segment about. And I hope this isn't so long it chokes your mailers. Live Long and Prosper, Jacqueline Lichtenberg !!!!!!!Ask me how to get the next Sime~Gen novel!!!!!!!! I have a new eddress - zeor@ucs.net Check out my home pages: http://www.netins.net/showcase/fidonet/jl.htm and http://www.lightworks.com/MonthlyAspectarian And my SF Review column at MonthlyAspectarian's site. AND ask me about the new Sime~Gen Listserve and Web Page http://www.aviary.share.net/~sam/zeor.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 16:40:10 EST Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Cheryl A Wolverton Subject: Re: Left Over from Dark Over Mary Lou...I have to say I've ticked quite a few people off who get upset when I say, hey, if the editor wants changes I'll gladly do it...after all That's their job...to know what is working, what the audience is going to buy and if it's going to help me fine....(And then wouldn't you know...I got only two minor things to change when I'd built myself up for major rewrites when I sold)....But in my opinion...a writer is a creater...they should be able to take that story and change the direction if need be...that's what's so fun with fantasy(writing)...is you can do so many things with it;) That to me is the artist part...being able to take it and improve on it;) Cheryl ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 16:16:30 -1758 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Leigh Kimmel Subject: Re: Left Over from Dark Over >Mary Lou...I have to say I've ticked quite a few people off who get upset >when I say, hey, if the editor wants changes I'll gladly do it...after But do you mean that you just put your brain in neutral and go "whatever you say, Master" or do you keep your own mind and try to negotiate a compromise position if the editor wants changes that would seriously f*ck up the story? It's one thing to be amenable to changes and it's another to make yourself into a mindless, will-less robot that does whatever you're told regardless of the consequences. "I do believe my crucifixion before the public has about reached its limit." ---- Admiral Husband E. Kimmel Leigh Kimmel -- writer, artist and historian kimmel@siu.edu http://members.tripod.com/~kimmel/LHKwebpage keeper of the Sime~Gen mailing list, simegen-l@siu.edu Ask me how to order the new S~G novel!!! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 16:26:23 -1758 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Leigh Kimmel Subject: Re: Stories in CZ >. Since she is now a professional novelist, she might not want her fan >stories placed on the Web. Lisa Waters, who edited and published and >contributed to AZ, doesn't want her AZ contributions posted. After cringing >my way through AZ 4 with my two stories I want to have posted, LORTUEN and >EASY AS HOP SKIP AND JUMP, I can easily understand why. It takes a lot of >guts or foolhardy idiocy to expose that stuff to public view! > I don't see what's so horrible about the fact that our earliest efforts were less than perfect. None of us were born full-grown, and the fact that we had to learn is not a disgrace. It's no more shameful than the fact that when we were little we drank from bottles because we had yet to develop the necessary muscle co-ordination to drink from a cup. It seems to me that wanting to hide all our early works because they aren't to the same level of competence as our mature works is like trying to destroy all our baby pictures because they show us in diapers and drinking from bottles and otherwise being other than the mature adults we our now. It's unreasonable to expect writers to jump clear to the highest standards of professionalism before they get even the tiniest smidgen of a reward. That would be like expecting children to hop right out of the cradle and start walking and running like adults without ever creeping, crawling or toddling. "I do believe my crucifixion before the public has about reached its limit." ---- Admiral Husband E. Kimmel Leigh Kimmel -- writer, artist and historian kimmel@siu.edu http://members.tripod.com/~kimmel/LHKwebpage keeper of the Sime~Gen mailing list, simegen-l@siu.edu Ask me how to order the new S~G novel!!! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 19:24:14 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Anne Pinzow Subject: Re: Left Over from Dark Over In a message dated 96-12-06 13:00:17 EST, you write: Is there a way to start small on this and sell an article or two? My writing skills are good enough to earn me a little money while I get enough training and practice for longer stories. I just don't know where/how to start! Yes there is. Write articles for magazines. Find a magazine that interests you, read it, find out what types of articles they are looking for and write some. The worst thing that can happen is that you'll get a rejection letter. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 22:18:56 EST Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jean Lorrah Subject: Re: Left Over from Dark Over Jan asks if there is a way to break into non-fiction writing in a small way. I did it some 25 years ago when I learned astrology. I began selling simple how-to articles (the best way for each sign to lose weight; the best way for each sign to stop smoking, etc.) to the astrology magazines. Sure, this stuff was simple-minded and sun-sign only, but of course my rule was "do no harm," so nothing I suggested could hurt anyone who tried it. My secret that sold every article I wrote (more than 60 of them), although some to the lowest-paying markets after being bounced by the higher-paying ones, was this: I would buy the latest _Reader's Digest_, and take the topics of the lead how-two articles in that issue! I never copied a word from an RD article--I just researched what it was that people were interested in learning how to do according to what they published. I furnished my house with the money from the articles I sold, from one to three every month. I stopped writing astrology articles when I started selling fiction. Jean Jean1@Juno.com Visit my websites: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3439/ http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4165/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 22:18:55 EST Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jean Lorrah Subject: reading@juno.com (Lois J Wickstrom): silly I thought with all the problems people on this list have been having with computers, you might enjoy this piece that Lois Wickstrom sent me. Jean Jean1@Juno.com Visit my websites: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3439/ http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4165/ --------- Begin forwarded message ---------- A helicopter was flying around above Seattle yesterday when an electrical malfunction disabled all of the aircraft's electronic navigation and communications equipment. Due to the clouds and haze, the pilot could not determine the helicopter's position and course to steer to the airport. The pilot saw a tall building, flew toward it, circled, drew a handwritten sign, and held it in the helicopter's window. The pilot's sign said: "WHERE AM I?" in large letters. People in the tall building quickly responded to the aircraft, drew a large sign, and held it in a building window. Their sign said: "YOU ARE IN A HELICOPTER." The pilot smiled, waved, looked at his map, determined the course to steer to SEATAC airport, and landed safely. After they were on the ground, the co-pilot asked the pilot how the "YOU ARE IN A HELICOPTER" sign helped him determine their position. The pilot responded: "I knew that it had to be the MICROSOFT building because they gave me a technically correct, but totally useless answer..." --------- End forwarded message ---------- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 22:34:27 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Anne Pinzow Subject: Re: Are professional artists prostitutes? (long) In a message dated 96-12-06 14:55:25 EST, you write: For example, I'm much more likely to receive something like "it is difficult to figure out all the different technical terms for the different parts of the rigging of a square-rigged sailing ship, and it would be better if you would slow down on them and take a little more time to make clear what each of these different lines and whatnot do" as compared to a command like "stop using all the technical terminology about ship rigging." When you are in a Writer's Workshop you might hear the first part of the above paragraph. When you are in a newsroom on deadline, then you will be lucky if you get more than a "CHANGE IT" And if you ask for a reason it's "BECAUSE I'M THE G-D D--MED EDITOR THAT'S WHY". If you're working on a script on deadline then the reason will be 'BECAUSE IT COSTS TOO MUCH TO SHOOT IT THAT WAY." If your are writing for a genteel editor who is your very best friend in the whole world and owes you a great deal, the reason for changing it will be "THIS IS THE WAY I'M MARKETING IT SO IT BETTER MATCH WHAT I WANT TO SELL.'" Now, of course you can always take your material elsewhere in a huff of hurt feelings, but then, there are a lot of writers out there who will jump at the chance to do it the way the editor wants it done and not make a stink out of it. Of course, the finished product may not be as good and probably won't be, but when the clock is ticking and the money is flowing the editor wants it done and wants it done fast and art can pretty much be thrown out the window. Leigh, if you want to write professionally then your skin is going to have to get a lot thicker. Readya, A.P.Pinzow "In real life, people don't often see the logic of the situiation. In fiction they have to." "Freedom entails responsibility." Belfry Books We publish the books the wise buy. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 20:41:25 -0800 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Mary Mendum Subject: WORK: Are professional artists prostitutes? (long) In-Reply-To: Leigh, Dominance squabbles aside (and I think that 90% or more of the "dominance challenges" you object to on this list exist only in your own imagination), your writing isn't selling because it has deep structural flaws. Your characters and background are well developed, but you haven't quite figured out how to use them to tell a story--and without a story to read, one which states and resolves a conflict without getting bogged down in irrelevent (non-conflict related) details, no one will care about how well you've done your worldbuilding. So, you have to decide which parts of the basic structure you're willing to alter so that the parts you don't want to change can stay intact. And structural flaws being the fundamental problems that they are, the changes required will change your original story concept in fundamental ways. I'm not talking about minor changes like using fewer technical terms or making the name of a character easier to pronounce. Take your Maggie and Edward story. As you outlined it in your posts, you had a detailed history for your world, lengthy biographies for your two main characters, an interesting situation to set up the conflict, and a sketch of the actions the characters would take to resolve that conflict. The only trouble was, the conflict and plot required your characters (particularly Edward) to do and be things that were in direct conflict with the background and biographies you'd established. Specifically, the plot required Edward to make the kind of mistakes only someone who's learning the First Rule of Being a Boss would make--and his biography listed him as an Admiral, promoted from ship's captain, a position which he could not have held without learning said First Rule long before your story begins. To turn your idea into a coherent story, you would have to change the characters' biographies and probably the background as well, to make them into the kind of people who would have the conflict you describe and resolve it in the way you designed your plot. I outlined several approaches to this, such as making Edward a junior officer without practical leadership experience who is valuable to the war effort because of his grasp of naval tactics which he learned from his father the Famous Admiral. Alternatively, you could keep Edward the Admiral and Maggie the apprentice sorcerer as you originally conceived them, and find a different conflict line and plot which is more compatible with the characters as you see them. Instead of a magical bond which Maggie is fighting because Edward is making novice-leader mistakes, you could come up with some other reason that an apprentice sorcerer and an experienced Admiral would form a working partnership. Or you could keep the bond, but change the way Edward handles it, which in turn would change Maggie's response. You'd end up with a completely different story, but it would be about the characters as you originally conceived them, and the various elements would be consistent with each other, instead of clashing violently as they did in the last outline I saw. So, when you run into this problem, you can only fix it by telling the same story about different characters, or by keeping your characters but telling a different story about them. What you can't do, if you want to sell, is refuse to change background AND characterization AND conflict line AND plot. At least two of these elements have to be flexible, so you can alter them to fit the parts that you don't want to change. When you workshop a story and it comes back with suggestions that you should make major changes in background or characterization, instead of screaming "That's NOT NEGOTIABLE", you should take a close look at what you've written. Chances are that you got that comment because you have the sort of fundamental structural clash I outlined above. Once you learn how to use criticism to find the flaws in your work, you can fix the flaws in a way that's comfortable for you. If someone suggests changing the characterization to fit the plot, and you prefer to change the plot to fit the character, that's fine. However, it would be of great help to those of us trying to help you get your first sale if you would let us know which two basic structural elements you're willing to change. Mary Lou ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 23:33:04 -1758 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Leigh Kimmel Subject: Re: Are professional artists prostitutes? (long) >Leigh, if you want to write professionally then your skin is going to have to >get a lot thicker. > Huh? The kind of cave-in-and-fall-head-over-c*nt-to-obey-Master behavior you're talking about is weak, thin, slave behavior, not strong, thick behavior. Or is this the 1984 War is Peace, Weakness is Strength stuff? "I do believe my crucifixion before the public has about reached its limit." ---- Admiral Husband E. Kimmel Leigh Kimmel -- writer, artist and historian kimmel@siu.edu http://members.tripod.com/~kimmel/LHKwebpage keeper of the Sime~Gen mailing list, simegen-l@siu.edu Ask me how to order the new S~G novel!!! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 23:41:57 -1758 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Leigh Kimmel Subject: Re: WORK: Are professional artists prostitutes? (long) >You'd end up with a completely different story, but it would be about the >characters as you originally conceived them, and the various elements >would be consistent with each other, instead of clashing violently as they >did in the last outline I saw. > But what you don't seem to understand is that changing those basic facts would destroy totally my interest in writing the story, so writing on it would stop -- in other words, it would destroy the story because it would never get written unless you expended a hell of a lot of energy in forcing me to write it, more than the end product could possibly be worth (and creating a lot of bad feelings in the meantime). I've had a lot of people who just don't get this -- that it's often easier to cut me some slack than to try to force me to do things their way. I will fight attempts to cover my will with theirs. "I do believe my crucifixion before the public has about reached its limit." ---- Admiral Husband E. Kimmel Leigh Kimmel -- writer, artist and historian kimmel@siu.edu http://members.tripod.com/~kimmel/LHKwebpage keeper of the Sime~Gen mailing list, simegen-l@siu.edu Ask me how to order the new S~G novel!!! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 21:53:17 -0800 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Cousin Cherri Subject: Re: reading@juno.com (Lois J Wickstrom): silly Jean sent to us to give us a good laugh: >After they were on the ground, the co-pilot asked the pilot how the >"YOU ARE IN A HELICOPTER" sign helped him determine their position. > >The pilot responded: "I knew that it had to be the MICROSOFT building >because they gave me a technically correct, but totally useless >answer..." ROTFLMAO!!! OH MY GOSH!!!!! That is soooooooo funny!!!! teehee ------ Cousin Cherri Keeper of Vachon's Guitar BlairBabe Janette on the SKL list FK * SKL * BtK * VAL * Sentinel * NVC * WF * LH * CSS * Sime/Gen Cherri FC: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/1732/cindex.html **** Lucius Fanaticus**** ** CyberTwin to Donna ** Katya's Sister ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 23:59:03 -0600 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Gregory Li Jao Subject: Re: Are professional artists prostitutes? (long) In-Reply-To: Leigh: I hope that you aren't deluged by responses to this post because I loathe redundant postings and I don't want you to feel under siege or embattled. However, as a freelance editor who has edited a dozen or so books over the last few years, I feel compelled to respond. (I tend to do content editing/outside reading of nonfiction. As you can tell, I don't do much with style or copyediting!) (I'm sorry if this is the wrong forum in which to respond. Maybe I should've responded privately?) > The irksome thing is that I _am_ willing to cut a deal and find a > compromise position, but generally when I try to work out a compromise > position it turns into a dominance squabble. 1) As an editor, my highest concern is to enable an author to convey his or her ideas in the most compelling, clear, and powerful way possible. I may be an oddity, but I'm less concerned with the "commerciality" of the project and more concerned about the "clarity" of the project. Though I may misunderstand the meaning of "clarity" in the case of any single book or series, my goal is to help the author communicate his or her vision. I genuinely desire for the author to produce the best book possible. In short: I'm on the author's side. >It seems like people will go > right past _tons_ of stuff that can be >changed and home in on the one > detail that is absolutely fixed (for instance it would seriously f*ck up > several other stories down the line, or the proposed change would violate > the magical or psionic equivalent of the laws of physics) and demand that > it be changed. When I try to explain why it can't be changed and let's work > around it by changing something else, they only hear "it can't be changed" > and become fixated on turning the "no" into a "yes." In other words, 2) When I read manuscripts, I look for anything -- issues, arguments, ideas -- which I believe distracts the reader from the point that the author is trying to make. I can't speak for your workshop experiences, but most editors I know have no incentive to seek out the absolute fixities for revision. My goal never includes trying to peeve my author. I really want them to succeed and to produce the best book prossible. May I speculate? I think editors who get stuck on one of your absolute fixities don't believe that its introduction IN THIS STORY moves the plot forward. If the point is absolutely necessary for the future, can it be removed from the text of the current story (though not from the background) and introduced where it is indeed absolutely necessary? > forcing my will -- which of course I am going to resist, because I don't > like being shoved around. So now it's no longer about "improving the story" > but about "who will give way to whom" -- a dominance squabble. 3) There are bad, egoistical editors. No question. I know from my own experience, though, that I don't try to engage in a dominance battle with my authors. It's a no-win situation. I'm curious why you see it as a dominance squabble, as opposed to an "I'm still unconvinced that your argument is correct" response? My goal is not to force the writer to my will. It's a logic thing, not a power thing. (Though I will admit that there are power-abusing editors as well.) > > Another thing I keep seeing is critiquers who want to issue unilateral > commands -- Do this! Change that! -- in the raw naked imperative as though > I were their slave girl instead of a free citizen, and then wonder why I'm > not just busting wide open with eagerness to obey them. I am much more open 4) I plead guilty here. My comments are often brief and potentially too curt. (I often read through my comments to "soften them.") Can I offer a partial explanation? I'm often write more than one page of commentary for every 10 pages of manuscript. I simply don't have the time to delicately and exhaustively explain why I'm suggesting a change. I try to, but I hope (probably wrongly) that my authors will understand my reasoning. (I do put some basic explanations in my comments, but it's not as complete as the model that you included in your post.) Frankly, it's a mix of work pressures and a lack of time to spell everything out. Leigh, again, my apologies if it feels like I'm sandbagging you or if I should've responded with a private post. I appreciate your willingness to expose yourself in this way on the list. And your post challenges me to be a little more delicate in my critique o